You came all the way over here for that?
 

Varsity game Friday night, NFHS rules.

Visitors are leading 14-7 midway through the second quarter. They have the ball, 4/5 around the home 40-yard line on my hash (as HL, I'm on the visitors' sideline), and elect to go for it. They run a naked bootleg to me side - only one home player picks up on it, but he's fast, and he catches up to the QB about two yards short of the stake, but the ball pops out on the way down. It shoots forward, bounces about five yards (i.e. past the stake), and goes OOB. No problem, 1/10 for visitors. R comes over to see what we got, I tell him, and we get the chains moving. Home captain also asks what happened, I tell him, and he says "Wow, lucky break for them, huh?" I nod my head and say "Yes it was," and we play some more football. So far, no problems.

The next half-dozen plays are ugly and chippy in middle of the field and on the other side - vistors commit both a USC and a DB PF with ejection (launching helmet 10 feet in the air and charging an opponent). It's 3/25, so the visitors take a timeout. I record the timeout and keep an eye on their huddle when I hear my last name called out. I start looking at other officials, and then at sidelines - I thought maybe a few of my students were at the game or something. Finally I notice the home coach has the card with our names on it in hand and is approaching me from his huddle at the center of the field, yelling that the visitor's QB had thrown the ball OOB on the bootleg play, and I've got to make that call.

It took me a few seconds to figure out what he was talking about - I'd already put the play out of my mind. Then I look at him and said (probably with more heat than I should have), "Coach, there's no way you're coming three-quarters of the way across the field to complain about a play that happened five minutes ago. Go back to your huddle." He didn't, I flagged him, he says "I know it's a flag, I don't care! You have got to call that." At which point my R and U step in and escort him back to his huddle, with him yelling the whole time.

What gets me is that he's got the opponents in a deep hole and he's probably going to get the ball back. He can't change the result of the play he's complaining about. And he knows he's going to draw a 15-yard penalty for doing it, but he came over here anyway. If I were a player on that team, I'd be pretty pissed off at my coach. Visitors end up gaining about eight yards on the ensuing 3/10, converting on fourth down, and driving down to score. Home team had no answer after that, and they ended up routed 47-7.

I understand that you thought the coach was a DOPE for coming over but you baited him with your answer and the unprofessional way you talked to him and then you stick him with 15 yards. Who is watching the teams huddle during the TO? Where is the help from your umpire/referee to keep the coach from coming all the way over to talk to you? You just should have let him make an A$$ out of himself and then stick him, your conduct was uncalled for. We need to stay calm when everything around us is going to crap.

I don't fully agree. The coach knew what he was doing. Maybe the reply could have been a little different but the coach was warned before the flag was thrown. I don't like to get into all the woulda/shoulda/coulda's. I have seen usually mild-mannered officials react in ways that I would deem uncharacteristic at times, me included. Bit don't pin this on the official - the coach drew this penalty himself when he left the conference and confronted the official.

The wing officials should have said nothing, this is the difference between a good and great official. The reply was totally uncalled for, even the poster is second guessing himself on that point. If that is a warning I need to rethink how I warn coaches. I always thought saying, "coach that is enough," seems to be a bit more professional and gets the point across.

I'm the referee on my crew and, based on the situation posted here, would prefer to give out any warnings like this myself.

As Ron mentioned, a brief "that's enough" should suffice. If it continues, then be a bit more stern and direct the coach to his team huddle.

My wings aren't expected to be mute -- they are quite demanding when it comes to sideline decorum and making sure the teams are in the right spots during timeouts. But with a coach in the middle of the field I would hope that any USC flag thrown would be mine after giving the appropriate warnings.

If all R's were as diligent as you this situation might have been prevented. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the R working the game in question caught it in time.

Ron, you contradict yourself.

First you say that the official should have said nothing. Then you say he should say 'enough'. I agree with the latter.

I noticed that. It's disappointing. Being a referee is far more a mental challenge than physical one, and game management is job one. I would hope I'd catch the coach not heading to his team (inside the hashmarks, of course) and direct him there immediately.

Another thing -- I'd rather the coach be angry at ME than the guy standing on his sideline the entire game. I'm in the middle of the field and can ignore the coach for the most part. And it's easier for the wing to control the sidelines if he hasn't had a confrontation with the coach.

I was refering to him address the coach first in a unprofessional manner, if he had enough from the coach give him a formal warning, "that is enough coach."

Roamin,

Did your R, U and BJ not have any additional information regarding the play in question? In other words, with the R following the play, he apparently didn't see the play any different than you or he would have stated. I would think that if any of your crew mates would have seen anything additional, they would have provided the information.

As an official you have to place yourself in the position of being on the other side, in other words think about your response as if you would like to be responded to.

I notice the home coach has the card with our names on it in hand and is approaching me from his huddle at the center of the field, yelling that the visitor's QB had thrown the ball OOB on the bootleg play, and I've got to make that call.

You already know the coach is hot. Maybe your referee or the other wing has failed you by containing the coach. So you throw gasonline on the now burning coach. What is the result. A raging fire!

There were two things you could do, 1) simply let the coach vent with the hope he either lets it all out and your partners help contain, or, 2) politely in a calming voice tell the coach what you saw and why you called what you did from your vantage -- he deserves that. He may not agree but it may earn you respect points rather than the disrespect when you told him to go back to his huddle. Yes, it happened five minutes ago but what harm in an explanation? He knows you are not going to change it.

There may be nothing you could have done or said that will change his mind. To question his judgement, albeit flawed, inflammed the incident and the flag only made it worst.

Did you cause the coach to quit coaching and to lose by such a margin?

Probably not, but it could be argued you did.

What the coach may have done and what so many coaches do is used the incident to try to gain control of you, that is, he baited you and you took the bait. The rest of the game he wants you to give him "his" call out of guilt for blowing up. It happens and some coaches are masters at it. In other words, he owns you.

Think it is worth remembering every call or no-call we make, we make with the solid judgement that based upon what we observed and the rules is correct. Don't let any coach or player for that matter bait you into making a call without

I have no problem with the original response. The coach came out for a fight. Nothing that would have been said by the officials would have been sufficient. If you played "dumb" and acted like you did not know what the coach was complain about, and then he would have insulted you further. We need to stop acting like we are supposed to take whatever abuse when these coaches are out of line. This is a varsity game. A varsity coach should know better. In my opinion "Roaming Umpire" did nothing wrong. It is not like he went after the coach. The coach came to the middle of the field and was yelling at the officials. The coach rolled the dice and he crapped out.

Peace

BJ? Gee, it'd be nice...

The R was totally screened, but my U said later he saw it my way, even though the player's back was to the middle of the field - he said the QB's hands were still down at his waist when the ball came loose, so it would have been awfully difficult to throw it forward intentionally.

Ron, I agree with you - my temper is something I need to work on, and a different reply would have been better. But this just caught me totally out of the blue. I was watching my team's huddle, and comments from coaches on my sideline generally don't surprise me, especially as they're going back and forth from the huddle during a timeout. This guy specifically wanted to get my attention - he came from his huddle to the nine-yard marks on my side just to complain, and I can't help but think he wanted to get flagged. I agree it would have been better if someone had headed him off first, but that's not the way it happened, and I've always been told that you can't allow coaches to show you up by demonstratively berating you from somewhere they're emphatically not supposed to be (at least, not without penalty).

Though I would have worded it differently, I have no problem with the response either. There are times when you MUST respond even if some would say that's throwing gas on the fire. It isn't like the fire is going to go out by itself without a response. I might have said something like, "coach, first, it was not a pass but a fumble, and second, I need you back on your sideline immediately." I don't believe the original comment was a bait, and this sure isn't a bait.

In responding in a factual manner gets you in trouble, then that's fine.

"Coach, the timeout is almost over. You need to get back to the sideline. Coach, that's enough." I am not against using the "Stop sign" like I use in basketball.

Roamin
I totally agree that he should have been flagged, but you would have flagged him with or without taking the tone with him that you did. We all make mistakes every game we work, the key is to learn from them, move on, and get better next Friday! Have a great game this week.

This is also a great lesson to all of us that we need to be better dead ball officials. Even during timeouts we have to stay sharp and not let our guard down. A timeout is not a time to socialize with your fellow crewmates, we all have responsibilities during the TO! We can all work on this.

I agree with Ron regarding this scenario, all the way up until this last post.. I don't agree that the coach had to be flagged at all. I think we all agree that roamin could have been more diplomatic with the way he spoke to the coach. But that coach has every right to vent in a frustrated manner about a call, even if said call was five minutes ago. Yes, at some point we get to the 'coach, that is enough' place, but roamin himself said he was surprised about what the coach was talking about, so it was not as if he had been belaboring his frustration.

As I see it, the coach coming onto the field is the major no-no. But somebody makes the point of why the HL isn't near the sideline covering his huddle. Even so, the situation could be avoided had roamin simply escorted the coach (or walked past him, thus forcing him to follow) to the sideline while saying something to the effect of 'if you wish to calmly discuss this, we need to take it to the sideline'...... It hardly warranted an automatic flag, hell, we aren't baseball umpires!!

Emotions take over with players and coaches. They blood, sweat, tear every day, not us. If we can use preventative measures to keep them out of trouble, we need to do just that. Insecurities and egos need to be set aside; if they were we wouldn't say things like 'he was asking for it'...... I hardly think he berated roamin to the point where he needed to 'stick' him as soon as he stepped on the field. There is a difference between being shown up by a coach and letting our ego think a coach is showing us up simply because he is angry about a call.

Just my humble take.

FWIW, despite my handle (which has its origins in when I worked baseball), I was the HL, and I was near the sideline covering my huddle. While the response could have been calmer, and I could perhaps have walked him over to his huddle or the referee, I certainly wasn't going all the way across the field back to his sideline.

Exactly. In baseball it's commonplace for a manager or coach to go out on the field and question a call or express his displeasure. It's not tolerated in football. If the coach comes out on the field he gets very little latitude before he's drawing a flag for USC.

I got no problem with the umpire either
 

Nobody out there is stupid...presumably. We're all adults essentially donating our time and the coaches know it. If he wanted to discuss the call or *****, or cry he should have called a time out and addressed the referee. He'd have had 60 or so seconds to say what he wanted. I take my officiating as seriously as my job. I refuse to be talked down to by people who are no more important (In the grand scheme of life) than me. I wish I was better with my temper, but once again, the coach should be a professional also.

REPLY: I agree with waltjp...when a coach is participating in a charged TO, he has the right to come onto the field between the hashes to speak with his players. But only for that purpose. He does not have the right to come all the way across the field to discuss anything with you. In hindsight, I'm sure you could have handled this differently. Heck, that's why you posted the question in the first place--to get others' opinions. But...that coach is skating on thin ice when he comes past his huddle, across the field to speak with an official.

lol!! in baseball a coach or player gets ejected for looking at the umpire wrongly. AND THEN, they are willing to stand toe-to-toe and scream at the coach!! as football officials, we pride ourselves in having the people skills and patience to deal with coaches and situations without having to exert our authority by flagging coaches!! we have the ability to diffuse situations. roamin, i did not realize you were on the OTHER side of the field from the coach's sideline. of course it is NOT tolerable for him to come all the way across the field. but surely, the U or R or BJ would have stopped him prior to him coming all the way across! even so, OF COURSE you could come across the field to discuss it with him!!! are you kidding?!! why not? charged timeout, the coach deserves an explanation and has yet to receive one because you are on the other side of the field. courtesy says you can jog over, give your take, politely listen to his take, and KEEP HIM OUT OF TROUBLE by turning and leaving!! contrary to what walt is saying, the coach should be given A LOT of latitude before drawing a flag. it is pure ego which causes us to become confrontational and 'stick' a coach. 'stick a coach'??!!! what an awful word, and contrary to the quality of work we strive to present as FOOTBALL officials.

Deeps, with all due respect, you have no idea of what you're talking about. Maybe you've been watching too many old-time baseball films. Baseball umpires, in general, are not having toe-to-toe arguements with managers and coaches - at least not on the amature level. In my opinion baseball umpires are far more adept at dealing with coaches than football officials.

For the rest of your post - keep the flag in your pocket if you're willing to let a coach berate you on the field - and if you do don't be surprised if you start to hear it from the other sideline too.

I am sorry, football officials never "owe" a coach an explanation. It is a courtesy for us to give an explanation. When we do give an explanation, the coach better behave in a manner that is sportsmanlike or calm. When a coach comes yelling and screaming, all bets are off. I do think we should be able to be approachable, but that means by being treated with some respect. When that respect by the coaches are not given, then we have every right to throw flags.

I am also a baseball umpire and I cannot think of one time where I was face to face with a coach. What you see in the pros almost never applies to amateur sports.

Peace

While I will ignore the offense I take to some of your statement, I respect your opinion. Yet, you focused on only one part of my statement. You must work baseball, and I apologize if I was either disrespectful of that sports' officiating philosophies, or off base. Yet, you failed to absorb the rest of my statement. It is one thing to be constantly berated by a coach after warning and warning have been given. You dramatize this situation, however. In THIS situation, the coach has yet to berate anybody (roamin is 'surprised' and doesn't know what the coach is talking about).... So, out of courtesy, we do OWE the coach our take, contrary to rutledge's statement. It is his game, rutledge. Drop the ego, give him his just deserve. Courtesy and common sense say he deserves to know what we saw. Should he have relayed the request through the LJ, of course. But can we keep him out of trouble by providing him a response? Of course. Coaches want to vent, and they have EVERY right to do that. Once they've done that..... turn and walk away...... say 'i've heard enough, coach'...... Both suffice as proper warning, which has not been given in this case. A coach on the field during play, inexcusable. Charged timeouts are different and can be handled without the use of force (15).....

By the way....... Walt...... I promise I do know what I am talking about, and take offense to your assertion otherwise. I will respect how your level and conference deal with coaches, and will agree to disagree...... But will safely assert that being flag-happy toward coaches is certainly not something that the 'next' level wants to see.

This is well said. Of course we are on the same page with regard to this rutledge, aside from a few points I made above. And of course it is all situational; if a coach is uncontrollable or inconsolable, sometimes we have no choice...... I simply thing those times are very, very rare.

Some of us don't care about the next level and how they handle things. We prefer to handle things right FOR THIS LEVEL.

It's my games as much as it's the coach's game, BTW. I'm not out there merely as his paid hired help.

That's my point, Rich! All levels should handle this situation the same! Flag-happy toward coaches isn't right for ANY level!

And it isn't YOUR game!!! It's those kids' who practice every day, those coaches who bring it home to their families! No, you aren't their hired help, but it isn't your field or your game. And it is just as much your responsibility is to keep those coaches and kids out of trouble IF at all possible. When you see two kids pushing after the play, and recogize the potential for a UNR late hit or a punch, do you just sit back and watch and let them hang themself? No, you rush in, get in the middle of them, provide a visual or physical deterrence. Namely, you become a good preventative dead ball official. YOU KEEP THEM OUT OF TROUBLE. I'm not gonig to let them walk all over me, granted; but UNS fouls should be avoided when possible. In Roamin's case, I feel it possible.

Though many of these responses dissapoint me, everybody is entitled to their opinions. I just hope we all can have the ability to check our egos at the door when stepping on the field.

As for me, I've got a freshman game to work in about an hour. I'll pretty much guarantee you a coach won't be flagged, nor will one be flagged at my varsity game Friday night, nor will one be flagged at the game (no less, no more important) that I will work this weekend. So spare me the 'We prefer to handle things right FOR THIS LEVEL' commentary; as my RESPECTFUL comments weren't meant to big-time anybody and were perfectly suitable to ANY level.

Isn't there anybody out there who agrees with my commentary, or are we all adopting a confrontational attitude toward those 'enemy' coaches?!!

It's my field and my game just as much as theirs. We'll just disagree on this one. I prepare and bring things home and work hard, just like they do. We're the third team out there. Pride and ego are two different things.

But I guess you'll be just like those coaches on TV. With cotton in your ears ignoring everything they say, no matter how unsportsmanlike.

It's not confrontational to punish unsportsmanlike conduct. Do you honestly think that we don't talk to coaches -- that we don't try to keep them from crossing the line? Please. I flagged a coach last year in a varsity game after we ejected a player of his for spearing. I gave him every chance to attend to his injured player and stop screaming at me near the hashmarks on his way to the player. I even tried to walk away from him. Eventually, the flag's gotta come out, though. It's got nothing to do with ego. I'm in charge, not him.

When they do cross the line, well, then we're passing on our responsibility if we don't penalize.

And our responsibility is quite different in a freshman game than in a D-I college game. If you don't see or understand that, then I certainly won't be able to change your mind.

Deeps, my last post on this subject. If the coach wanted the ruling explained he has a procedure to follow. He can request a TO to confer with the referee. The coach is not to cross the field and approach an official who is working the other sideline.

I would certainly be having a conversation with any member of my crew who left their position to have a chat with the coach about a call. Even during time outs the officials have jobs to do.

It's been stated before; this situation should have been caught when the coach left his huddle and started for the other side of the field. It wasn't. Shame on the R, the U and the BJ but their lapses does not exonerate the coach's behavior.

REPLY: Just remember a few things...

1. A coach does have a right to an explanation of what might have transpired on the field. He gets it when there's an opportune time. No need to stop the clock or take yourself away from game duties to explain. Do it when time allows. Relay the information to his sideline official if you're not in a place to explain it to him yourself. And...if you promised him an explanation, don't blow it off. Make sure you get back to him.
2. When a coach comes onto the field for a TO, he does not have the right to come across the field to discuss anything with you as the calling official. However...
3. He does have the right to use his TO to confer with the Referee, near his sideline--not in the middle of the field under the rule allowing a coach-referee conference. But even here, his 'right' is limited to discussing a possible misapplication of a rule. A difference in opinion about an official's judgment is off-limits. If the conversation begins with, "How could he call that pass interference...," the R should cut it off right there. "Thank you coach. I'll relay your concern to the back judge. Now you might want to attend to your team for the rest of your time out." Then walk away.

Don't know if my typical response would have worked in this situation, but, consider this response:

"Coach, what I saw was a fumble, if it happened they way you say it did, I booted the call."

For me, this disarms 'em and shut's 'em up 99% of the time. They usually respond... "Oh....hmmm... OK" and return to wherever they were.

I know wasn't the point of thew post, but I have to ask..........
In the orginal play it was fourth down, I thought that you could not fumble the ball forward on fourth down. Shouldn't the ball have been spotted at the spot of the fumble?

NCAA rules, which are played in only 2 states at the HS level, yes. The other 48 states there is no such rule.

It's not just on 4th down. it's on any fumble that is forward and out of bounds. It's brought back to the spot of the fumble. If NFHS would adopt this rule, then we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

REPLY: But to clarify, ND is correct for NCAA fumbles that go forward and OOB. But for NCAA fumbles forward that remain (are recovered) inbounds, it's only on fourth down that they come back to the point of the fumble. For first, second, and third downs, fumbles that are recovered inbounds are treated identically to the way they are in NFHS.