Basic Spot
 

A’s ball 3rd and 5 from the 50. A25 takes a toss sweep and advances to B’s 45 YL (beyond the LOS). During the run, A15 holds at B’ 40 YL. Trapped, A25 treats behind the neutral zone to his own 45 where he is hit and fumbles. A10 picks up the loose ball and runs for a TD.

When B accepts the penalty, from where is it marked?

The play was a running play and A fouled behind the basic spot (the end of the run is the goal line) so go back to B's 45 (spot of the foul) and go back 10 yards to A's 45 and repeat 3rd down.

If B declines, TD for A.

REPLY: Anyone else have a thought on this one??

The end of the related run was A's 45, where the fumble occurred. Since the foul is in advance of that spot, we'll enforce from the end of the run. A 3/20 @ A35. And smack that running back for retreating 10 yards.

I happen to agree with RoaminU on this one. Seems pretty harse, but that's how I see it too.

BTW, the spot of the foul was at the B-40 not the B-45

I don't agree with the Ump.

And I just abused the edit button.

The fumble behind the line makes that part of the play a loose ball play. The basic spot is therefore the original line of scrimmage. Since A's penalty was prior to the fumble being recovered and not behind the basic spot, you mark off the 10 yard penalty from the 50.

I don't think Bob M will agree with anyone yet.

I think Bob M will agree with you. We must have been posting at the same time. The fumble behind the neutral zone created a loose ball play that included A25's run beyond the neutral zone. So the foul occurred during a loose ball play.

NF:

There are two types of plays (for penalty enforcement purposes) during this down.
The first is a Loose Ball play, which begins with the snap and ends with the recovery of the fumble by A10. See 10-3-1-c(Note). A fumble [in this case] made by A in or behind the NZ before a COP constitutes a Loose Ball play, and this includes all of the run(s) preceding the fumble.
The second is a Running play, which begins with the recovery by A10 and ends when the down is over (TD). See 10-3-2. The action during this time period does not match any definitions outlined in 10-3-1 so it is a Running play by default.
The hold occurred prior to the recovery by A10 so it occurred during a Loose Ball play. The Basic Spot for a foul during Loose Ball play is the Previous Spot. See 10-4-2-b. According to the all-but-one principle, all fouls are penalized from the BS, except for a foul by the offense behind the BS.
In this case, it is a foul by the offense however the spot of the foul is not behind the BS, which is the PS.
Therefore, penalize A 10 yards from the PS, 3/15 from the A-40. Clock on the snap.

REPLY: Exactly !!!

Loose ball play. It doesn't matter where the runner's been, only where the fumble occurred. It occurred behind the LOS, so it's loose ball play, enforce from the previous spot.

Yep. My mistake. There are two basic spots on this play, one for fouls during the first run and during the time the ball is loose (the spot of the fumble) and a second basic spot for fouls during the second run (the goal line). I used the wrong spot. It is a running play but since the foul was during the first run, we'd use the spot of the fumble as the basic spot.

Just ignore me on this topic. I keep posting answers without carefully reading the play. It's a fumble behind the LOS which is a loose ball play and the basic spot is the previous spot.

REPLY: Let's be crazy and take this one a step further. Now consider:

A’s ball 3rd and 5 from the 50. A25 takes a toss sweep and advances to B’s 45 YL (beyond the LOS) where he fumbles and A22 recovers. During A25's run, A15 holds at B’ 40 YL. Trapped, A22 retreats behind the neutral zone to his own 45 where he is hit and fumbles. A10 picks up the loose ball and runs for a TD.

Does this change the enforcement???

This is a foul by A during the run that precedes the loose ball play so it would be considered part of the loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous spot and the foul would be marked off against A from there.

Well this is interesting because we can have two different play philosophies, however only one is going to be right.

The first would be that there are 3 separate and distinct running plays during this down:
1) The first running play is the time starting with the snap, through the run by A25 and the subsequent fumble, and ending when the ball is recovered by A22 at the B-45.
2) The second running play starts with the recovery by A22, through the run and fumble and ends when A10 recovers at the A-45.
3) The third running play starts with the recoverey by A10 and ends when the down is over (TD).

Tecnically speaking, in NF, we only beanbag fumbles that are beyond the LOS. In this case, we have a bag down at the B-45 during the first running play for any foul that occurs during that time period (defined above). However if that is a running play, then that would mean that we would need a bag down for the fumble behind the LOS for an enforcement spot during the second running play. This goes against NF philosophy as there can only be one and only one Loose Ball play during any given down and such Loose Ball play always precedes any running play, so we have to look at an alternative.

The alternative is to rule that even though there was a fumble between the two "runs" that occurred beyond the LOS, the provisions in Rule 10-3-1-c are still valid because there was a fumble by A behind the NZ before a COP. Even though the Note in 10-3-1-c states that "The run(s) that precede such ... fumble is (are) considered part of the action during loose-ball play", it does not specify (more importantly, prohibit) that fumbles beyond the LOS that occur between runs that eventually end up with a fumble by A behind the LOS before a COP, one must interpret the rule that this situation is the intent of the rule and that the provisions of 10-3-1-c are still met.

Therefore, all of the action right up to the point of A10's recovery of the second fumble is all considered part of Loose Ball play and any foul that occurs during this period is enforced per the all-but-one with the BS being the PS. So we've still got A 3/15 @ A-40. Clock on the snap.

Now, even though this is Loose Ball play, the official is still correct to have a beanbag down beyond the LOS in this play. However, it is simply disregarded due to the subsequent action during the down.

My first thought is no but maybe I'm missing something. A25's run ends where he fumbled (loose ball) and is certainly the basic spot at the time. A22's recovery begins runII. When he fumbled behind the line, it now becomes a "loose ball play" and includes all the runs preceding and in turn nullifies the first spot for enforcement. A10's recovery begins runIII but it is after the loose ball Play and is not a factor for enforcement.

The basic spot is still the previous spot.

Gah! You see, that's why the runner needs to be smacked for retreating so far - he made me mess up my enforcement! :rolleyes:

No this doesn't change the enforcement spot. Although you may have more than one spot of enforcement during a running play (each time a penalty is called it has a related spot of enforcement where the run ends), you may have only 1 loose ball play during each down. Even though you first had a loose ball in advance of the neutral zone, when A recovered the loose ball and retreated behind the line of scrimmage and fumbled, this fumble caused all the previous action to be part of a loose ball play. The foul occured prior to the fumble behind the line of scrimmage, so the foul is part of the loose ball play. If B accepts the penalty it will be enforced from the previous spot, if they decline it will be a touchdown for A.

Nope, when they fumble behind the LOS, ALL the runs before that become part of the loose ball play, so PS enforcement.

lets make a slight change in the play.

A’s ball 3rd and 5 from the 50. A25 takes a handoff and advances to B’s 45 YL (beyond the LOS). During the run, A15 holds at B’ 40 YL. A25 is hit and fumbles on B's 45. A10 picks up the loose ball and runs for a TD.

Does this change the enforcement???

It does. The basic spot becomes the end of the related run, B's 45. Result after enforcement is 3rd and 10 at A's 45.

Yep, that's why we throw a bean bag.

Do you bag a backward handoff beyond the LOS?