12 men breaking the huddle
 

It's 4th and 1 from the 50 yard line, When Team A breaks the huddle with 12 men. Prior to Team A getting in their punt formation the coach yells for the 12th man to run off the field. He does. As an added note their was no intent by Team A to deceive, just confusion on their part.
Interested in everyone's interpretation if this is an illegal substitution or not?

It is in NCAA rules.

Not in NFHS. See these threads:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...reaking+huddle

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...reaking+huddle

Had this situation last week and here is how did it. A had ball, 3rd and 8. Kid comes in. As WH, I get to stand near huddle. He says "Malcome get out". No one leaves. Qb then says, "Malcome, Get your A$$ out a here" . Coach begins yelling "Malcome get out" Finally as the huddle is breaking, (10 on play clock) Malcome runs off the field. Opposing coach raises all kinds of junk during the play. I go over, retell the story. It is not in the rule book. The rule states 3-7-1 "Between downs, any number of eligable subs may replace players. replaced players shall leave the field immediately."

There was no deception, just Malcome not getting off the field. The way my crew deals with this is, I can monitor if it is a mistake. 1st time, let it go. 2nd time, tell coach to figure it out. 3rd time, flags away. Now, if this is late int he season or playoffs, this is enough of a season for them to know, I am more inclined to not allow it at all. Deception in our collective minds is when the team intentionally does this or when a team comes to the LOS and sees an extra player somewhere on the field.

We have had very little issues by using it this way.

When did the sub enter the field/huddle?

If he'd been in the huddle for 10 seconds and the replaced player didn't leave, then a flag should have flown before they even broke. Breaking with 12 is not the issue.

Flag. Defense does not know who to cover.

What happens when other team has same problem and you are not close enough to hear it.

I'm now beginning to see why question #6 on the part II test was there.
#6: An official's personal opinion about the value of a rule is not to have an effect on the enforcement of the rule.

As described, this is a foul that needs to be called. By not doing so, you just maybe put the screws to the next crew who does make this call.

I am also going to flag this, the offensive is trying to pull a fast one on the defense, and in my opinon that is a foul in HS.

Not necessarily. Nothing in the OP indicates that the 12th player was in the huddle an inordinate amount of time. This is clearly a foul in NCAA, but there is not a FED rule that says breaking the huddle with 12 is illegal.

What IS illegal is the sub not coming off "immediately". There IS judgement that comes into play when deciding what "immediately" means, and if there is no A) intent to deceive or B) actual deception (even if unintentional), you have no reason to flag this other than showing that your are an OOO.

I would give 3-5 seconds (my interpretation of immeadiatly) for the substitute to leave, otherwise it would draw a flag from me.

Works for me... but the OP doesn't say one way or another, and everyone is assuming that the extra player was out for more than that. I'm just saying we can't assume, and it is important to know (in FED) that the penalty is NOT for "breaking the huddle with 12", even though coaches will yell for exactly that, but rather for the sub not coming off "immediately".

Something related to this happened this last Friday. The team on the other sideline is lined up for a scrimmage kick. They realize that they only have 10 players out there and run a wing back in late and he easily gets set in time for the snap. I have some coach going nuts behind me yelling that they broke the huddle with 10. :confused: I calmly tell him that isn't a rule. :cool: He then says that it should be. :eek: Oh, if we let the inmates run the assylum.

This is what you get when you let 14 coaches on the field for the varsity game on Friday night!

Flag it. The replaced played did not immediately leave the field of play. Breaking the huddle with 12 has bearing and is not a HS rule.

14??? I think it was closer to 20!!!!

I wanted to give this thread a big old bump for my white hat who frequents this site.

We had a spirited discussion during halftime of our game last night (which was televised as the game of the week...very cool experience seeing yourself on TV). The crew maintained that you can't break the huddle with 12 players. I insisted that was an NCAA rule and that in federation the simple act of breaking the huddle with over 11 players isn't a penalty itself nor is it automatically a substitution infraction. I understand the concerns of a replaced player not leaving the field in a timely fashion; but furthering a misnomer, that most all coaches hold about the rules, only serves to make our job harder.

REPLY: sloth...you're correct and your crew needs to get on the right page with this: There is only one foul that might be called in this type of situation. It is simply for failure of a replaced player to leave the field 'immediately' after being informed that he's been replaced. There is no Federation foul specifically specified for breaking the huddle with twelve players. There is in NCAA, but not in Federation! So if a substitute enters a huddle just before they are about to break and as the huddle breaks, the replaced player heads off to his sideline and off the field, there is no foul!

12 men breaking huddle
 

In general, this is a judgement call regarding the "immediately". Our association prefers we flag them as a substitution violation, rather than have it develop into a participation violation. If I hear the sub tell 62 Jones "you're out" and Jones is having a brain fart, I'm cutting them some slack on the "immediately".

an acceptable time for "immediate" is 3 to 5 seconds.

I agree with the 3 to 5 second window. I think it really is up to the white hat to watch the situation and make the call based on his opinion as to what "immediate" is considered.

I really don't want to give coaches that easially quantifable criteria if its wrong. Thats where I think as officials we ALWAYS need to avoid the term "breaking the huddle with 12 players". Its not the rule, and while the spirit of the federation rule is very similar, its not the same absolute cut and dry measurement as to if a foul has occured. There is that discression allowed to the referee to let it pass if it wasn't intended to gain an advantage or deliberate in nature.