Forward handing or fumble?

[Zeke5]

A32 advances the ball across the NZ where he attempts to
hand the ball forward to A78 who muffs it. A22 recovers the ball at A's 45.

This is a fumble, not illegal forward handing, right?

I am assuming this since there wasn't a clean transfer of
posession, and I wouldn't think this was an illegal forward
pass unless they stated there was some sort of forward
thrust and release of the ball by A32.

[Theisey]

You didn't by any chance get a look-see at a copy of my closed book NCAA exam now?
Very similar play except they made it a fourth down.
Any any rate, it is not an illegal play, it is a fumble.
I'm sure NFHS rule agree

[BktBallRef]

Why wouldn't it be illegal forward handing AND a fumble?

[Zeke5]

Well, I was going right from the definition of handing in
NHFS rules book which states:

"Handing the ball is transferring player possession from
one player to a teammate in such a way that the ball is
still in contact with the first player when it is touched
by the teammate. Handing the ball is not a pass."

In this instance, there really was no "transfer" of player
possession, but a loss of possession in which a lose ball
situtation ensued, therefore it does not not fit the
definition of handing. Additionally, it definitely does not
it the defintion of a forward pass.

Does anyone else buy this argument? I'm scrapping here,
because we had a heated debate about this one this week and
I had very few people in my corner. I'm glad I'm not a
lawyer ... I'd be broke ...

[TXMike]

Your explanation works for NCAA also. An "attempted handing" even if it is forward is not a foul. In this play situation it would be a fumble, nothing more.

[Ed Hickland]

This would not be a pass. By definition, a pass must be in flight.

A32 action was illegal forward handing, even though, it was not controlled by A78. The act of illegal forward handing as defined in 3-19-1 requires only touching. Then the ball was fumbled.

I remember this play. I threw the flag for illegal forward handing when the runner made contact with his teammate and the ball was fumbled and recovered by a B player. Of course, B wanted the ball and declined the illegal forward handing.

[Theisey]

The definition of a fumble in both codes is about as close to exact as one can get.
However, under the Handing definition, the NCAA code specifically says (2-12-1-c) Loss of player possession by unsuccessful execution of attempted handing is a fumble.

That rule part does not exist in the NFHS rules making one wonder then if this is a muff or fumble.
The football rules differences manual does not list a difference here and play example 4-4 in George Demetrious Officials guide to NFHS football says this is simply a fumble and not an illegal forward handing. Their detailed descriptions of handing, fumbles and muffing convince me that this is a no foul situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
This would not be a pass. By definition, a pass must be in flight.

A32 action was illegal forward handing, even though, it was not controlled by A78. The act of illegal forward handing as defined in 3-19-1 requires only touching. Then the ball was fumbled.

I remember this play. I threw the flag for illegal forward handing when the runner made contact with his teammate and the ball was fumbled and recovered by a B player. Of course, B wanted the ball and declined the illegal forward handing.

I would have to agree with you, Ed. That's why I asked the question.

Your statement is correct. This is not a muff. This is a fumble. A muff is the touching or accidentally kicking of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. In this play, the ball is not loose until A32 fumbles it. A32 is considered to have fumbled the ball when A78 does not control and possess the ball. If A78 touches the ball after A32 fumbles it, then A78 has muffed it.

I think a case can be made that as soon as A78 touches the ball, we have illegal forward handing.

[Zeke5]

Interesting stuff, I have to admit. It's kinda crazy that we
have to get caught up in the semantics of definitions rather
than ruling on the intent of an action. Clearly, A32 was
attempting to do something illegal.

Would you not eject a player for taking a swing at an
opponent, but missed? Hell, I'd be tempted to dart someone
for a blatant, but failed, attempt at tripping a potential
tackler. But, how far can you extrapolate throwing flags for
failed attempts at doing something illegal? You can't
throw a flag for illegal kick if a player tried to kick a
grounded ball and missed. So, we're back to being safe and
relying on parsing the defintions.

So, Ed, I respectfully challenge your call from above,
especially, since your situation fails the definition of
handing on two fronts:
1. There was no "transfer" of player possession but a
loss of player possession in which a loose ball ensued
(fumble)
2. Even if we deemed that the ensuing loose ball
recovered by anyone was a "transfer" of player possession,
the transfer was not "from one player to a teammate" (from
definition 2-19-1). I would think that even if A32 forward
handed cleanly to B56, that would not be an illegal action
(not too bright of an action, though).

I do agree that the touching part of the definition was
satisfied.

Thanks Theisy for the corroboratory sources.

[Ed Hickland]

So, Ed, I respectfully challenge your call from above,
especially, since your situation fails the definition of
handing on two fronts:
1. There was no "transfer" of player possession but a
loss of player possession in which a loose ball ensued
(fumble)

Zeke, I had trouble with that myself. However, the ball remains in team possession. While the definition is clear on "transfer" you have to interpret the fact the handoff may be bobbled which is not explicitly provided in the definition, though may be implicit.

2. Even if we deemed that the ensuing loose ball
recovered by anyone was a "transfer" of player possession,
the transfer was not "from one player to a teammate" (from
definition 2-19-1). I would think that even if A32 forward
handed cleanly to B56, that would not be an illegal action
(not too bright of an action, though).

Correct. A32 handing to B56 transfers both team and player possession. Not illegal, dumb, but not illegal.

Consider if A32 attempted to hand the ball forward to A78 and it is fumbled. The ball continues to roll forward and is picked up by A16.

Will the attempted foward handing be ignored?

[BktBallRef]

I do not believe the letter of the rule, nor the spirit of the rule meant for player possession to have to change to have illegal forward handing.

Handing is described as transferring the ball from one player to another. But just because the transfer is not complete does not mean the ball was not handed. 2-19-2 says Forward handing occurs when the runner releases the ball when the entire ball is beyond the yard line where the runner is positioned. It doesn't say the ball has to be possessed by the second player for forward handing to occur, only that it must be released by the first player.

As Ed said above, a fumble in such cases where A recovers the ball would allow them to circumvent the rule.

[Zeke5]

"As Ed said above, a fumble in such cases where A recovers
the ball would allow them to circumvent the rule. "

... which is what the case sources are telling us. I do not
agree that this is the spirit of the rule, either, but I'd
now be reluctant to throw the flag in this situation in fear
of a coach who may have read these cases or tests.

I just find it funny that NCAA rules are explicit in this
case. The NFL treats it like an illegal forward pass and
the ball is dead. You are also never allowed to hand to a
lineman in the NFL, even backwards.

[stripes1977]

While its true that we can't rule on the intent of a player in all situations, it would be easy to sell this call if we flagged it. Even a smart coach (dare I say they exist??) would have a hard time making a case against it. We just have to be careful in trying to quote the rule (i.e. - DON'T try to quote the rule). Just give the coach a reasonable explanation (pacify him) and move on with the game. Surely he'll find something else to ***** about in the next few plays.

[Rick KY]

I think this is a foul and a fumble. The handing player handed the ball forward, unsuccessfully but nonetheless forward, to another player. In this case the foul resulted in a loose ball. What happens nbext will determine how the fouls is enforced, if accepted.

[stripes1977]

I agree with the masses...this has to be considered a foul. Otherwise I can hand the ball forward and "accidentally" drop the ball to a team mate. If for no other reason this would be a foul because it isn't in the spirit of the rules.