Mechanics questions

[stripes1977]

I've worked two scrimmages this year and I've seen a couple things that I thought were no-no's:

1) When signaling incomplete, I've seen some older officials give the incomplete signal followed by the time out signal...isn't this redundant?? I know that some clock operators are ignorant, but as a general rule, shouldn't we assume they know that the clock would stop on an incomplete pass??

2) Sideline play, ball carrier is tackled in-bounds and the play results in a first down. Wind the clock to show he is inbounds and THEN stop the clock for the first down correct? (The one question about this is how many times do we wind it and how many times do we give the stop clock signal? I've been taught that we do everything in three's, so do we do the wind twice and the stop clock once or vice-versa or what?)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by stripes1977
I've worked two scrimmages this year and I've seen a couple things that I thought were no-no's:

1) When signaling incomplete, I've seen some older officials give the incomplete signal followed by the time out signal...isn't this redundant?? I know that some clock operators are ignorant, but as a general rule, shouldn't we assume they know that the clock would stop on an incomplete pass??

No, it's not redundant. It's the proper mechanic. Should we assume that the clock operator will stop the clock when he sees a penalty flag on the field or the ball go OOB?

2) Sideline play, ball carrier is tackled in-bounds and the play results in a first down. Wind the clock to show he is inbounds and THEN stop the clock for the first down correct? (The one question about this is how many times do we wind it and how many times do we give the stop clock signal? I've been taught that we do everything in three's, so do we do the wind twice and the stop clock once or vice-versa or what?)

I usually wind the clock 3 times and stop it twice. I don't know that thee is a required number for either.

[stripes1977]

Like I've said before, that's why I'm asking here, to get some info from more experienced guys. I guess I would like to think that the clock operator knows what's going on, but of course they don't always know. Thanks.

[BktBallRef]

We expect the timer to start the clock on the snap or when R touches a free kick. But we always signal when the clock is to be stopped.

[stripes1977]

Makes sense.

[Rick KY]

In KY we have been asked to think about this mechanic. If you have a play where the ball becomes dead near the sideline, in or out, signal to stop the clock when it should stop, and no signal if it should keep running. If the R needs to know tell him, either vocally, or using the OOB signal (arms down, palms back).

I prefer that mechanic, but find either is acceptable. I normally wind it 2x, unless we're in the final seconds of either half. In that case I'll stop it immediately and relay to R that he was inbounds and take a look at the chain. Then we can restart the clock without consuming time for plays.

[Rick KY]

In KY we have been asked to think about this mechanic. IF you have a play where the ball becomes dead near the sideline, in or out, signal to stop the clock when it should stop, and no signal if it should keep running. If the R needs to know tell him, either vocally, or using the OOB signal (arms down, palms back).

I prefer that mechanic, but find either is acceptable. I normally wind it 2x, unless we';re in the final seconds of either half. In that case I'll stop it immediately and reaaly to R that he was inbounds and take a look at the chain. Then we can restart the clock without consuming time for plays.

[Zeke5]

Is there an official NHFS book on mecahnics (or suggested
mechanics)?

Obviously there is going to be a lot variance from state
to state (even chapter to chapter).

For #1 I do feel that that the kill clock signal is
redundant. I only give one slow incomplete signal for an
incomplete pass. I guess you have to have some faith in the
clockman since I've never seen anyone give the kill clock
signal after a touchdown signal ...

For #2 I give 2 winds and 2 kill clock signals, after which
I will signal to my R if the ball was OOB by snapping
finger (on snap), or in bounds by tight winding motion of
finger (start clock on ready).

[stripes1977]

I agree with you Zeke, I know that sometimes clock operators make mistakes and all, which should tell us we should always glance at the clock, but I will usually give them the benefit of the doubt that they know (in general) when the clock starts/stops or that they will at least know what the officials' signals mean.

[BktBallRef]

However, you're not just signalling to the timer. You're also signaling to your fellow officials, the players, coaches, and fans. Most fields are crown based. On a sideline incompletion, chances are that the opposite bench is not going to be able to see an incomplete signal. Just as well, in a crowded team box, the timer may not be able to see the LJ if there's an incompletion on a sideline. Your referee may not see the incomplete signal, if he's watching the QB for possible roughing.

It's just one of those mechanics that isn't always needed but when it is needed, it's important to do it. For example, there's no reason to throw a bean bag when a fumble occurs in the offensive backfield. But it is necessary to throw one if the ball is fumbled beyond the LOS or you could be in a world of hurt.

Good luck guys! I don't think you're going to have much success getting this mechanic changed.

[stripes1977]

I'm not trying to get anything changed...I'm just gathering information. I have been training officials at my University for the past 4 years and I am the first one to say that the more we communicate, the better. Be it verbal or with mechanics. I just want to make sure I personally know the correct mechanics, because this is an area that is often overlooked where instruction is concerned. I would much rather be left to read the rules in depth on my own (rather than in the clinics) and be taught mechanics and other practical advice. Coaches don't know what's in my head (and if I don't know something, I'm not going to flag it), but they can easily see poor mechanics.

[Theisey]

Ah, mechanics questions... ask a simple question and you'll get a dozen different (and probably all valid) answers.

Bottom line should be... follow the mechanics for the code your officiating under. NFHS publishes an officials manual with all this good stuff in it. CCA published mechanics manuals for NCAA 5,6 and 7-man games. Everyone has to be on the same page from game to game.
Alterations to the bottom line are that you do what your supervisor of officials wants you to do. Call them authorized modifications if you will.

NFHS states exactly what to do for signals to stop the clock and says to do them twice. Each one is independent, i.e. a pass incomplete signal is sufficient to stop the clock. They also discuss the winding when the ball becomes dead near the sideline and near sideline and first down is gained.
See page 14 and 15 in the Officials Manual if you are interested.
I'm an "older" official and never have been instructed to signal #10 then signal #3 on an incomplete pass. Nor signal #6 then #3 on a TD or other score.
It is redundant and we don't do it that way.

NCAA mechanics manuals document this good stuff too. On pages 27, 45, 49 and 53 in this years 6-man mechanics manual as an example, it's all there. We ALL do this unless the supervisor of officials for your conference says otherwise. Ours says to follow the manual or else.
There is at least one D-1 conference I'm aware of where the officals are required to use the redundant signals. So be it. Is it wrong? No, but it is different from what the rest of us do.

The game clock timer is instructed and hour before every game by the appropriate official on just what signals are used to start and stop the clock are. It's more than just #3 and that timer better know it. CCA manual documents this very clearly and they receive a copy of this manual in my conference.

[stripes1977]

I agree with you Theisey...we kinda have to go by what the manual says except when someone in a position of authority says to do something else. At this point I'm trying to get the NFHS mechanics down, although I have hopes of needing to learn NCAA rules and mechanics if I am fortunate enough to make it that far.

I don't want to concern myself with giving two or three different signals on a given play when the incomplete or touchdown signal should automatically stop the clock. I don't recall having meetings with the clock operators before the games, but I sure would like to have that opportunity to instruct them just as I would my chain crew. In a way it gives them an opportunity to ask questions but I think more importantly it makes them feel important and a part of the "team".

[zebraman55]

I totally concur with the thoughts on using the mechanics your supervisor desires. My only thought here is that you (and your crew) must be consistent.

If you wind the clock when the ball is downed near the sideline in the first quarter, then you must do the same with less than a minute to go in the half or game. As an earlier post indicated, the wind near the sideline is NOT just for the clock operator, but also for the coach. If the visiting team runs the ball toward the home team sideline, the runner downed near the sideline, and you wind, this is telling the coach on the other sideline that the clock will continue running. He can then strategize from there as the game progresses, thinking that when the ball is near the sideline, the runner downed, you will either kill the clock or wind. This, the coach thinks, will provide information for him late in the half or game.

If you change this, then he will feel he is not getting the info he needs to properly execute his plan. And, you provided that info earlier in the game and are not now.

Two winds is sufficient!

zeb

[Ed Hickland]

Since I started it was always signal the pass incomplete, then stop the clock. Makes sense as the clock operator or your fellow official may not see the incomplete pass signal. Personally, as a referee, I tell my crew do not expect me to see anything downfield...use your signals.

On the start the clock, stop the clock. Years ago the start the clock signal was not an approved NFHS signal for indicating the ball was in-bounds. Then it became approved to indicate the ball was in-bounds versus out-of-bounds near the sideline. Well, if you think about it, if you signal the ball is in-bounds but it is a first down, the signals make sense. NFHS Officials Manual states two winds to keep the clock going. Not specific on stopping the clock but two sounds good unless the clock operator does not stop it.