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[SouthGARef]

I'm trying to put together a list of "Ten Things That Could Happen That We All Pray Don't" for--well, for kicks. Here's four questions I've got so far. If you see anything wrong with these questions, please don't hesitate to correct me. This is all off the top of my head so I may have missed some rules or something. Also, if you have more (I'm still six short) please post!

Thanks!

Question One:

Team B leads Team A 8-7 with :01 remaining in the 4th quarter. 3rd and Goal from Team B’s 4 yard line. Team A attempts a field goal to win the game. The field goal is blocked, which is then picked up by team A kicker A1 in an attempt to run the ball in. During the run, lineman A74 holds at the five yard line. A1 runs to the one yard line, where he is hit and fumbles into the endzone. B35 recovers the fumble and returns ball. During B35s return, B56 holds in B’s endzone. B35 returns fumble for a touchdown. Time expires during the down.

Answer: While this is a double foul (a foul by both teams), team B’s foul occurred AFTER the change of possession, thus they could decline team A’s foul to maintain possession. However, doing this would mean that B56’s hold would be enforced using the all-but-one principle. Since the hold occurred during a running play, the basic spot would be the end of the run. However, since the foul occurred BEHIND the basic spot, it would be enforced from the spot of the foul—team B’s endzone. Which would be a safety for team A, giving Team A a 9-8 lead. So Team B would be forced to accept the foul by Team A, giving us a double foul situation. The fouls would offset, and the down replayed. An untimed down must be played since there was an accepted foul on the last timed down of the quarter, and if team A then hits their field goal, Team B would be chasing stripes off the field.

Question Two:

Team A leads Team B 8-7 with :01 remaining in the 4th quarter. 4th and 10 from Team A’s one yard line. Attempting to avoid taking a knee in his own endzone, Team A quarterback A8 will attempt a QB sneak to end the game. However, he fumbles the snap into his own endzone. He picks the ball up in the endzone and runs out of the endzone. Not thinking, he throws an illegal forward pass from the 2 yard line. The pass falls incomplete. Time expires during the down

Answer: If Team B’s coach knows that the loss of down would cause the ball to turn over to Team B, this could lead to mass chaos. While normal enforcement procedures would turn the ball over to Team B at the 1 yard line, the game would be over. Since periods are only extended by live ball fouls that DO NOT carry a loss of down, the game would be terminated.

Question Three:

Team A leads Team B 10-7 with :13 remaining in the 4th quarter. 4th and 10 from Team A’s one yard line. Team A’s snap goes array and the punter attempts to avoid a safety by throwing a pass from his own endzone. However, his throw is near no eligible receivers. He is flagged for intentional grounding. The clock reads :01 after the play.

Answer: Team B would want to decline the foul, giving them a safety, since two points do them no good, and they would rather take the ball at A’s 1 yard line in order to attempt to win the game or tie the game with a last second field goal. However, since intentional grounding/illegal forward passes are considered running plays declining the foul would place the ball at the end of the related run. The end of the related run? Inside Team A’s endzone, meaning that even if the foul is declined the result of the play is a safety. Team B would still trail 10-9, and would have to return Team A’s free kick for a touchdown in order to win.

Question Four:

Team K leads Team R 8-7 with :08 seconds to go. 4th and 10 from 50 yard line. R18 is in position to catch the punt, where K13 creams R18 at the R10 before he can attempt a catch. Team K then lands on the kick and the play is blown dead. The clock reads :01 after the play. Knowing that penalizing K back from the line of scrimmage would only allow K to take a knee and win the game, R’s coach/captain elects to take an awarded fair catch at the R10 yard line. Team A (old Team R) attempts a hail marry pass, but the pass is only completed at the 50 yard line. A35 catches the pass, and attempts to run towards the endzone. He gets to the Team B (old Team K) 3 yard line, where he is tackled by the facemask by B71 near the sideline. The clock reads :00 after the play. The officials inform both teams that there must be an untimed down, and Team B’s coach reluctantly agrees. However, before the referee blows the ready for play whistle, team A’s coach calls a timeout. During the timeout, Team A’s coach—an old and wily veteran of the game who knows the rule book very well—tells the referee that he would like to free kick, and would like the ball placed at the middle of the field for his kick.

Answer: This is legal. While few people know that a free kick for FG can be attempted following a fair catch/awarded fair catch, even fewer know that this provision continues if a foul during the down after the fair catch/awarded fair catch causes the down to be replayed as it is in this case. Also, Team A is allowed to request where the ball be placed for a free kick for FG.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

These all look good to me. How about this one:

PLAY: K punts, and an R player catches it on the fly @ the R4, and his momentum takes him into the end zone. He then tries to run upfield, but fumbles while still in the end zone. The ball bounces out of the EZ; while it is @ the R3, an R player commits a holding foul @ the R8. The ball bounces out of bounds @ the R6.

RULING: Even though neither the foul nor the succeeding spot is in the EZ, the enforcement spot is the end of the run. Since the momentum rule is NOT in effect, the end of the run is in the EZ, and the foul results in a safety.

[James Neil]

Help me out here RU. Why isn't the Mo execption in effect ?

[RoyGardner]

Under NCAA rules, the loss of possession in the EZ, combined with the loose ball coming out of the EZ into the field of play, means the momentum exception will no longer apply on this play.

The enforcement spot then by rule becomes the "end of the related run". In this case, the "end of the related run" is the spot of the fumble in the EZ.

[wwcfoa43]

It apears that the Canadian rules allow for no major issues with these situations.

1. The A hold would be enforced from PLS. Assuming that the hold occured in the EZ while the ball was in the EZ, there is no safety and the penalty is enforced from the B20. So B should decline the A foul and take possession on the B10 (Team A would of course accept to nullify the TD) and will have one more play to try and score.

2. An illegal fwd pass is enforced as L10 and down repeated. So B's best play would be to accept the penalty forcing A to take another snap on the A1. Declining the penalty would end the game.

3. The penalty for intentional grounding from the EZ is a safety. Since the result of the play was an incomplete pass B would want to decline and accept the play which would give team B possession on downs. (Why in the U.S. rules is it not an incomplete pass if the foul is declined - that is the result of the play is it not?)

4. We would have two fouls on the play: Restraining Zone foul (hitting a player trying to catch a punt) and Rough Play (vicious hit on a punt receiver). The first is 15 yards and the second is 25 yards. So this would give team R 1st and 10 at the R50. We have no free kick provisions so the best that A could have is another down at the B1.5 yard line.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by James Neil

Help me out here RU. Why isn't the Mo execption in effect ?

The ball has to become dead in the EZ for the ME to kick in. See NF 8-5-2a Exc. or NCAA 8-5-1 Exc.

[DJ_NV]

From the original post:

"While few people know that a free kick for FG can be attempted following a fair catch/awarded fair catch, even fewer know that this provision continues if a foul during the down after the fair catch/awarded fair catch causes the down to be replayed as it is in this case. Also, Team A is allowed to request where the ball be placed for a free kick for FG."

While I know this sounds right, can someone post the actual NF rule(s) for this? thanks

[The Roamin' Umpire]

NF 4-1-2: "A free kick shall also put the ball in play: ... (c) When a free kick is chose following a fair catch, an awarded fair catch, the replay of a down which follows a fair catch or an awarded fair catch."

Also, NF 4-3-6 specifies the situations in which A may designate the spot from which the ball is put in play between the inbounds lines. Interestingly, it lists after a(n) (awarded) fair catch, but not on replays of those. So if you make a fair catch, snap the ball, and accept a foul that occurs during that play, you may now change your mind and free kick, but you don't get to set the spot of the ball.

[wisref2]

This one doesn't involve a foul but is a play I hate. 4th and goal from the half yard line for A following a timeout with 1 second to play. If A (visitor) scores, they go to the playoffs. If they don't score, B (home) goes to the playoffs. A lines up with a full backfield and, back in my days as a Linesman, I'm saying to myself, "Don't run up the middle." Of course, they run a power right up the middle and we have 22 guys in a big pile and I have to decide which team goes to the playoffs.

It only happened once - I dove in the pile, found the ball, found the goal line, ruled touchdown and left in a hurry. Home team coach caught up with us and yelled at me "Are you sure that was a touchdown?" I only said, "I'm as sure as I can be with 22 guys piled on top of the ball. I got there as soon as I could and made the best ruling I could." Surprisingly, he smiled, and said it was a tough call to make, then said we did a nice job and shook our hands. (whew!!!!)

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

...So if you make a fair catch, snap the ball, and accept a foul that occurs during that play, you may now change your mind and free kick, but you don't get to set the spot of the ball.

I don't know that I agree with this statement. Look at Rule 4-3-7: When a team may designate the spot along the proper yard line from which the ball is to be put in play, it shall have the same privilege if the down is to be replayed or a dead-ball foul occurs.

[mcrowder]

I don't see a real problem with number 3. Consider that play from the point of view of the intentional grounding not happening ... what do you have - a sack in the endzone for a safety - same thing you have with the intentional grounding (whether accepted or not).

Basically you have a coach complaining because he can't decline a safety. Sorry sir.

My pet peeve with the rules (and one you touch on in the first example) is ANY play where the result would be a touchback, but a foul occurs in the end zone, turning a play that could NOT result in a safety had the player been tackled INTO a safety because of basically a glitch in the rules. There are a number of sitches that fit this bucket... but it makes no sense logically. The reason a BIB or Hold in the EZ is normally a safety is because the illegal act prevented the possibility of a safety. But if the runner is simply in the EZ after a change of possession (punt, kickoff, fumble, int), the illegal act simply prevented the ballcarrier from being tackled in the EZ - and NOT a safety.

If I had the power to change one rule - I would change this one to enforce from the 20.

[wwcfoa43]

In Canada, we could never have a foul award points which would not have been awarded with no foul and the player tackled in the EZ.

So an interception in the EZ, and a BIB would be applied from the 20 and would not be a safety.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by mikesears

I don't know that I agree with this statement. Look at Rule 4-3-7: When a team may designate the spot along the proper yard line from which the ball is to be put in play, it shall have the same privilege if the down is to be replayed or a dead-ball foul occurs.

*sigh* This is what I get for not looking at the next sentence. Thanks, Mike.

Jeez, this is the third mistake for me in as many days. Must be something about the air down here in Austin.