Forces of Kick
 

I got a situation from last year that I would like to bring up again.

4th and 7 from A's own 15. A1 lines up to kick, recieves ball, kicks and is blocked by B1. Ball rebounds and comes to rest at A's 5 yd line.

Here comes a member of each team running toward the ball, Member of B gets there first and jumps on the ball causing it to go into the endzone, where A jumps on it and causes it to go out of the back of the endzone.

Who's ball, where, why? (with refererences if possible, thanks)

If the ball was truely at rest, then it was the new force by team-B that put the ball into team-A's endzone not the kick. We don't even have to make a judgement call on that.

A's muff did not apply new force, therefore I go with a touchback with Team-A snapping from the A-20 1/10.

NFHS Ruling
 

4th and 7 from A's own 15. A1 lines up to kick, recieves ball, kicks and is blocked by B1. Ball rebounds and comes to rest at A's 5 yd line.

Here comes a member of each team running toward the ball, Member of B gets there first and jumps on the ball causing it to go into the endzone, where A jumps on it and causes it to go out of the back of the endzone.


Touchback: 1st & 10 at the 20 for A (K).

8-5-1 Force: Responsibility for forcing the ball from the field of play across the goal line is attributed to the who carries, snaps, passes, fumbles or kicks the ball unless a NEW Force is applied to a GROUNDED backward pass, kick or fumble.

8-5-3b It is a touchback when: Any scrimmage kick or free kick becomes dead on or behind K's goal line with the ball in possession of K (including when the ball is declared dead with no player in possession) and the NEW FORCE is R's (B) muff or bat of the kick after it has touched the ground.

In your situation the ball is at rest. A new force has been applied to a grounded kick. In your scenerio B (R) has applied the force. When B(R) forced it into the endzone, you will either have a touchdown for B if they secure possession, or a touchback for A if they secure possession or the ball crosses the endline or the sideline and is declared dead in the endzone.

Same scenario except the ball is at rest beyond the NZ. What's the call?

In NFHS, it's the same result (TB)--it doesn't matter if the ball is behind or beyond the neutral zone, nor does it matter if the grounded ball is at rest or not. In this situation, whoever muffs across the GL is responsible for it being in the EZ and a Safety or TB will be ruled based on that.

In NCAA, it's a little different. In order for a muff to be considered new force, a grounded ball must be a rest. Not only that, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a muff. Any contact (other than being blocked into the ball) creates new force, or 'impetus' as it's referred to in NCAA.

NFHS Ruling
 

DJ

I may have a disagreement with you on your answer.

"In NFHS, it's the same result (TB)--it doesn't matter if the ball is behind or beyond the neutral zone, nor does it matter if the grounded ball is at rest or not. In this situation, whoever muffs across the GL is responsible for it being in the EZ and a Safety or TB will be ruled based on that."

You say that it doesn't matter if the ball is at rest, whoever muffs the ball across the goal line is responsible for it being in the endzone. This is only true "if in the judgement of the covering official the muff applied a NEW FORCE to the ball. IF the ball would have crossed the goal line on its own then the kick is considered the force wether it was muffed or not. If the official is unsure if the muff supplied a new force, then he will rule that the force was the kick and the result will be either a touchdown if R secures possession in the endzone or a Safety if K has possession and is downed in the endzone or the ball is declared dead behind the goal line with no one in possession.

REPLY: One additional comment...the fact that A jumped on the ball in the endzone which then squirted back over te endline is immaterial to the discussion of force. With force, all that matters is what caused the ball to pass from the field of play across the goal line. What happens to the ball after it enters the endzone is important, but is in no way a factor in determining force.

What about 4-4-2f for the ball at rest beyond the NZ?

Same scenerio, but change it to where when the ball is in the EZ, K intentional bats it across the endline.

If the ball is truely at rest and K touches it then I have a dead ball instantly. However if a player of either team is coming to touch or recover it and the ball is at rest then I am waiting a bit longer.

I want to give Leon Lett as much time as he needs to get to the ball. :D

Funny, I misread all of this as taking place down near R's endzone. So:

4/7 @ R15. K lines up for FG, has it blocked, and the ball comes to rest at the R5. Several players dive for the ball - it is touched first by R, who muffs it into their own end zone. K falls on the ball there. Ruling?

REPLY: Foul by K during the kick (a loose ball play). Basic spot is the previous spot. If R declines the penalty, result of the play is a touchback (K, 1-10 at K's 20). If R accepts the penalty, enforcement will be from the spot of the foul since it's behind the basic spot resulting in a safety. Which do we think they'll choose? :confused:

Addendum: After you answer Roamin' Umpire's question, think about this. Would the result be any different if the ball was touched first by K who muffs it across R's goal line?

Nfhs
 

4/7 @ R15. K lines up for FG, has it blocked, and the ball comes to rest at the R5. Several players dive for the ball - it is touched first by R, who muffs it into their own end zone. K falls on the ball there. Ruling?

2-23-4: A scrimmage kick is any legal kick from in or behind the neutral zone. Either a place kick, drop kick or punt may be used
2-23-2: A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession.
4-2-f The ball becomes dead and the down is ended: when the kickers catch or recover any free kick anywhere, and when the kickers catch or recover a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone and when the kickers are first to touch a scrimmage kick after it has come to rest beyond the neutral zone and between the goal lines.
2-13-4: Force is not a factor: on kicks going into R's end zone, since these are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.

I have a touchback:

By definition it is still a kick. In your scenerio R is first to touch the ball after it came to rest, so the ball is not dead when they touch it. By definition it is still a kick (2-32-2) and Force is not a factor (2-13-4) Touchback!!!!!!

Sorry Bob

I was working on my answer as you were posting to niner.

If you believe 2-13-4-a, it would be a touchback.
If you don't believe it, than it would be a TD for K.

I happen to be a believer.

Let me throw out there a "what if".

What if, in the original scenario where K was on their own 20 yd line, B blocked the punt, the ball came to rest on say the 10 yd line this time. This time B applies a new force to the ball and now it is rolling near the goal line where a K member intentionally or non-intentionally muffs the ball into or through the EZ. Is B still "responsible" for the force into the EZ since the ball was still rolling? What if, in the officials judgement, the ball would not have made it to the EZ without "help" from K?

What have we got then?

GH

REPLY: For Federation: First thing to remember is that solely from the perspective of determining force, K's touching of a scrimmage kick behind the NZ is not ignored. Therefore, that touching might constitute a new force in your example. It's entirely up to the covering official to determine whether or not K's touching added a new force (which means that the force attributed to R's muff is expended), or whether R's muff is still the force. Simply a judgement call. For NCAA: Unless R's muff comes to rest, K's touching cannot be considered a new impetus.

A different force. A is running the ball but fumbles at the B's four yard line. The ball rolls into the EZ where B intentional bats it across the endline.

REPLY: For force, the only thing that matters is what caused the ball to cross from the field of play into the endzone. Anything that happens to the ball once it enters the end zone needs to be considered, but it will not change the force. In other words, B's bat is a foul that needs to be disposed of, but it is not a new force.

The only force is the fumble by team-A.

The result of this play is a TB, but team since team-B fouled for illegally batting the ball, one would expect team-A to accept the penalty which would be 1/2 distance from the end of the run.
Place the ball on the B-2 yardline

(edited) Sheesh Bob.. you type fast than I