Stump the Chump reborn

[Bob M.]

OK...time to get this train rolling again. Here's the first installment:

PLAY: A (no TOs remaining) trails 13-10 with 0:10 left in the fourth quarter. It's 4/5 on B's 22. A15 runs and is tackled at about B's 17 where the LJ notices that it's close to the line to gain. He stops the clock with 0:03 remaining. Umpire flagged B32 during the play for an incidental face mask at B's 20. What is the next down, distance, and more importantly when will the clock next start?

OK...let's allow the FED guys to answer this one first, and then we'll get the NCAA guys to weigh in. Oh...and of course our Canadian brethren too.

[nvfoa15]

1/10 from about the B12, clock on the RFP. If A does not get a play off before time expires then the period will be extended for one untimed down.

[Suudy]

Originally posted by Bob M.
PLAY: A (no TOs remaining) trails 13-10 with 0:10 left in the fourth quarter. It's 4/5 on B's 22. A15 runs and is tackled at about B's 17 where the LJ notices that it's close to the line to gain. He stops the clock with 0:03 remaining. Umpire flagged B32 during the play for an incidental face mask at B's 20. What is the next down, distance, and more importantly when will the clock next start?

I'm a Fed guy, so I'll take a stab. You didn't mention if the runner was tackled in bounds, but I'll assume he was.

If A accepts the penalty, it's 5 yards from the end of the run, so 1st and 10 from the 12. The clock starts on the ready. If the clock expires, A gets 1 untimed down, because there was an accepted penalty on the last timed down of the quarter.

(Edit: Doh! Bob's later response make me change my response for when A declines the penalty.)

If A declines the penalty, and the LTG is reached, it's 1st and 10 from the 17. Clock starts on the ready. If A does not get off a play, game over.

If A declines the penalty, and if the LTG is not reached, it's B's ball, 1st and 10 from the 17. Clock starts on the snap.

[Edited by Suudy on Dec 14th, 2005 at 12:59 PM]

[Suudy]

Why not mix it up? Certainly this would annoy fans and others that think Sunday rules apply on Friday.

Play: Team A trails by 2 points. 1st and 10 from A's 30. 0:05 left in the game. A1 completes a long pass to A2 on B's 30. As A2 runs for a touchdown, there is a block in the back by A3 on B's 5. Time expires during the play.

Rulings?

[nvfoa15]

Re Suudy's play: Basically the same 1/10 on the B15 period extended one untimed down.

[JasonTX]

NCAA is the same as Fed with 1 exception. If the time runs out when it's start on the RFP the game will be over. The period would have been extended had time ran out during the down.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by JasonTX
NCAA is the same as Fed with 1 exception. If the time runs out when it's start on the RFP the game will be over. The period would have been extended had time ran out during the down.

REPLY: Jason...did we ever determine definitively whether or not A15 reached the LTG? And would that make a difference with respects to starting the clock?

[waltjp]

Originally posted by Bob M.
OK...time to get this train rolling again. Here's the first installment:

PLAY: A (no TOs remaining) trails 13-10 with 0:10 left in the fourth quarter. It's 4/5 on B's 22. A15 runs and is tackled at about B's 17 where the LJ notices that it's close to the line to gain. He stops the clock with 0:03 remaining. Umpire flagged B32 during the play for an incidental face mask at B's 20. What is the next down, distance, and more importantly when will the clock next start?

OK...let's allow the FED guys to answer this one first, and then we'll get the NCAA guys to weigh in. Oh...and of course our Canadian brethren too.

FED

B will be penalized from the end of the run. A 1/10 from B 12. The clock will start on the RFP. If time expires before A can snap the ball they will be given an untimed down because of an accepted penalty during the last timed down of the period.

[JasonTX]

Originally posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Jason...did we ever determine definitively whether or not A15 reached the LTG? And would that make a difference with respects to starting the clock?

NCAA:
I jumped too soon didn't I? If the run ended with a 1st down the clock will start on the RFP with no extension if time runs out. If they are short of the 1st down with the run the clock will start on the snap after the enforcement of the penalty.

[Suudy]

Originally posted by JasonTX NCAA:
I jumped too soon didn't I? If the run ended with a 1st down the clock will start on the RFP with no extension if time runs out. If they are short of the 1st down with the run the clock will start on the snap after the enforcement of the penalty. [/B]

I'm a Fed guy, but this doesn't make sense. How is this determined? Is it because without the penalty they would have been short of the LTG, so after enforcement it is treated as a pseudo change of posession? So, if the spot of penalty enforcement is behind the LTG on 4th down, the clock starts on the snap?

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by JasonTX

NCAA:
I jumped too soon didn't I? If the run ended with a 1st down the clock will start on the RFP with no extension if time runs out. If they are short of the 1st down with the run the clock will start on the snap after the enforcement of the penalty.

REPLY: So, as an experienced NCAA official, what would you do in this situation since the clock status (RFP or snap) is so crucial here?

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Suudy

I'm a Fed guy, but this doesn't make sense. How is this determined? Is it because without the penalty they would have been short of the LTG, so after enforcement it is treated as a pseudo change of posession? So, if the spot of penalty enforcement is behind the LTG on 4th down, the clock starts on the snap? [/B]

REPLY: Suudy...Jason's response was for NCAA rules which has totally principles for starting the clock than does the Federation. Maybe after we discuss this a little bit more, Jason will give us an explanation of the NCAA's principles. He's much more eloquent than I when discussing NCAA rules.

[ljudge]

OK, I cracked the NCAA rule book recently with plans to apply in January (assuming I can get two coaches to write letters).

When the final NCAA answer comes out on this one please cite rule reference numbers.

[JasonTX]

Originally posted by ljudge
OK, I cracked the NCAA rule book recently with plans to apply in January (assuming I can get two coaches to write letters).

When the final NCAA answer comes out on this one please cite rule reference numbers.

When clock starts: 3-2-5. The key for NCAA is to remember why you stopped the clock. In the original play above let's suppose the run was well short of the first down. We stopped the clock to award team B a first down (3-2-5-e). Now that we have determined why the clock was stopped we will now deal with the penalty. Team A keeps the ball after the enforcement. On the flip side of the play, suppose the run netted a first down. We stopped the clock to award team A a first down. After the enforcement it will restart on the RFP. (3-2-5-a-1) If the clock is going to restart on the RFP it would be a good idea to make sure the coaches know. The quick and easy method for the clock starting is to ingore the fact there was a foul and start it as you normally would with the exception that the clock will start on the snap at the end of any legal kick. There is also an approved ruling to support my ruling. AR 3-2-5 I-IV

[Bob M.]

REPLY: OK Jason...the $64,000 question: Would you ever consider measuring after A15's run for the sole purpose of determining when you'll next start the clock after enforcing the penalty for B's foul? (Note: This question only makes sense under NCAA rules)