USC or Legal Deception

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
I can tell you right now coaches say that "last week they..." all the time. I knwo for a fact that they lie about it. Many may tell the truth, but there was one time where I was on "last week's crew" and I can tell you we did not allow it but he said we did. Those coaches think they're so smart.

don't they all think that?

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

I only saw Peyton do it once and he got flagged for illegal motion -- he went under center then went in motion.

The last game of the season an assistant of a 1-7 team challenged me that the QB walking away looking for instructions play was legal and he was going to run it. I said, "OK coach and I will flag you for it." He wanted to see the rule. I found it in the Casebook under 9.9. They did not run the play and finished 1-8.

Maybe they should have spent more time working on legal plays!

When ever a coach says show me. I ask you show me?

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
NCAA: Live ball foul, 15 yards from Previous spot. Clears up Ed's problem with succeeding spot.

Does Fed list this as a "live ball" foul? If not, you can blow the play dead, enforce it from the Suc. Spot and be OK. Otherwise, the rule needs to be changed, as if they gain 50 yards, but have to give back 35, it still worked.

Here it is from the casebook:

9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, “Where's the tee?” A2 replies, “I'll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward his team's sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.

RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

[Ed Hickland]

Makes sense. The foul truly occurred before the snap. If you let the play continue and they go 50-yards for a TD you could have a debate over enforcement.

Best my memory can recall Peyton Manning went under the snapper, then walked toward his bench and the ball was snapped to a back. They let the play go and then called it back for the penalty.

Of course, us TV viewers have to rely on the usual unknowledgeable announcers to explain it to us.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I'm not arguing against USC enforcement from the succeeding spot. It's just that you really can't blow it dead before the snap because there might just be legitimate confusion (or a missing tee). You need to wait till the snap to actually determine that the confusion was a designed ploy to deceive the defense. And then you need to stop the play now in progress with a whistle. Essentially, the foul makes the now live ball dead. It's fair, but it's just incongruent with other rules.

[wwcfoa43]

Perhaps you can think of it as a retroactive dead ball foul. The foul occured before the snap but you did not know it until after the snap. So you kill the play and enforce as if the play never happened.

We have similiar "retroactive" instances in the Canadian game. Pass Inteference occurs when the ball is in the air while illegal contact occurs on passing plays before the ball is in the air.

If the offense commits illegal contact then we only know that it is a passing play once they throw the ball. So we flag the IC when the ball is in the air even though the foul by definition occured before the ball was in the air.