Think I did this one right!?

R called roughing the passer. Pass completed with LJ calling defensive pass interference.

Assistant coach for team on defense goes bananas gets unsportsmanlike.

Here was my speech to the offensive captain.

Captain, we have two penalties and you get your choice of one. The pass was complete. There was a roughing the passer, so, we can add 15 yards from where the ball was caught. Or, there was defensive pass interference which would take the ball back to the line were it was snapped and go fifteen yards. Both fouls will give you an automatic first down. Then, after you make a decision on one of those, there was an unsportsmanlike foul which will take you half the distance from wherever the ball is placed after the first foul and, of course, that will give youa first down.

Would appreciate any ideas.

Notice I never told the captain about declining the penalty because if he did there would have been an unsportsmanlike on the offensive coach for his remarks. :)

Why would you even discuss the DPI or even worry about options? Choice is obvious. Tack on the 15 for the RTP and then the 15 for the UC.

Correct. You give the offended captain all of his options.

How come you are not writing articles.

Notice I never told the captain about declining the penalty because if he did there w
 

Just wondering what the offensive coach was yapping about?

Canadian Ruling
 

You'll like this one:

Up here we really ding these acts. The roughing the passer flag is a UR - which is added to other fouls. The bench foul is an OC - also added. Since the catch was caught, it is rare to accept the DPI. So go up 25 from the Point Ball Dead, AFD.

Why?

TXMike, unlike the NCAA the NF still wants the Captain to be consulted on all penalty situations.
That does not mean that we have to make a long drawn speech. All that does is give the Captain a chance to make a mistake. Keep it short. Just ask the Captain, “you want to decline the DPI and except the RTP penalty and the USC penalty, am I correct?” If he gives you a blank stare, then you can go into a more detailed explanation.

By the way, because the last run ended beyond the neutral zone and there was no change in possession, the RTP foul is enforced from the dead ball spot not the spot of the foul.


[Edited by Dale Smith on Nov 9th, 2005 at 08:32 AM]

That is exactly why there is no decisionmaking involved. They get the benefit of the play plus the tack on. Seems ridiculous to delay the game, or worse - open the door to a terrible decision- when the choice is obvious.

I agree with you 100%, Mike, but one thing I've noticed from new officials imported from Fedlandia is that they tend to unnecessarily slow the game by giving the captains (heck... they even will do this to 7th graders!) options when it's absurd to even ask. With one guy I worked with a lot, the habit was impossible to break.

False Start on the offense --- walk it, don't ask... but this guy asked all year. Facemask penalties at the end of the run - they ask. I don't get it, and I don't understand why they are trained that way... but they are.

Ok, setting the USC aside. For the other stuff I make it simple and tell the captains what penalties we have with this kind of description....

"OK, captain we have pass interference and roughing the passer. If it's OK with you we'll decline the interference because that's enforced from the previous spot and accept the roughing and we'll enforce from the end of the run. I'm sure you want the ball at the 25 instead of the 40" (assuming going in of course). Of course the captain agrees and says yeah, we'll take that.

I might not be exactly that wordy but the key point is "if it's OK with you this is what we're going to do" kind of thing. I even tell the coaches in my Pre Game that we'll extend the courtesy to both teams and give common sense penalty options (meaning, the no-brainer stuff that the offended coach would want).

I tell the coach on choices that would give 2nd and 15 vs. 3rd and 10 that's solely the captain's decision to make.

TXMike and mcrowder believe it or not, I do agree with you. Unfortunately NF 10-1-1 says always consult with the Captain. Until several years ago our state commissioner demanded that we follow that rule to the letter. I got told about consulting with the Captain, after a game that this guy just happened to be at. When he retired the new guy backed off and told us to just tell the Captain what we are going to do when the choice is obvious.

Friday night varsity: Captain, if you decline the penalty you'll have this, and if you accept the penalty you'll have this. I'ts his decision. He's the captain and given that rsponsibility by his coach. It's not my responsibility to enlighten the player, but to give him his options as succinctly as possible.

It is also NOT your role to permit something ridiculous to happen, which you do by opening the door to a declination. If you want to say this is a Fed (or State) requirement to do this, then fine. But I defy anyone to explain the logic behind doing so and to provide a reason for doing so aside from "that is what we are told to do".

So, 1st and 10 on the 20. Defense jumps across the neutral zone and makes contact. You signal the foul.

Then you waste time finding a captain (they've already rehuddled and are more interested in getting the new play from the sideline, so you have to holler a couple of times before you get one). "Captain - you can accept the penalty and have 1st and 5 on the 25, or decline and have 1st and 10 from the 20. Which would you like?" (And yes, this is EXACTLY what the guy I was mentioning above would do, and I couldn't break him of the habit)

Do you flag the captain for USC after he gives you the "You're an idiot" look? This is not just silly, it's a waste of time for EVERYONE at the game.

I agree with asking the captain when there is an actual decision to be made (1st and 5 vs 2nd and 1... or 2nd and 20 vs 3rd and 10, etc). But when one option is clearly the "only" real option, don't ask. Signal it, walk it, signal it, start the clock.

Mike, this is a respectful forum, so when you use caps like that, it's disrespectful to anyone responding. We're not children, so, please don't yell at us like we are.
I find it a very simple and easy way for the captain to understand his decision, and have encountered few if any problems.
Only on a lower level or youth game will I try to pursuade the captain.
Rule 10-1-1
When a foul occurs during a live ball, the referee shall, at the end of the down, notify both captains. He shall inform the captain of the offended team regarding the the rights of penalty acceptance and shll indicate to him the number of the ensuing down, distance to be gained, and status of the ball for each available choice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I've read this section over and over, and nowhere in it does it allow for the officials to make the call for the captain. Which is what in essence you are doing.
Maybe your in too big of a hurry.
I've been on the sidelines for college and professional games and have ovcerheard discussions between officials and captains regarding penalty enforcement, and they do it
strictly by the book, and they're the best and most
respected.

Lighten up, Francis.

Putting a single word in all caps is not "disrespectful" or even yelling (putting whole sentences in caps is yelling). It's the way I type to stress a word.

Good grief.

As to the topic at hand, I don't work FED rules. The issue doesn't arise in games I work (except, as mentioned above, when I work with a referee who learned his craft in Fedlandia, and will not change his ways).

I'm not in any hurry - my pace is good. I just think it's a waste of time to "discuss" anything when there is no doubt at all about the outcome of the "discussion". (Note that I'm not saying that your mechanics are wrong as far as the rule goes - I'm saying the rule is silly)

And the next time I see a college official ask a captain whether he wants 1st and 5 instead of 1st and 10 will be the first time.

Like I said, if you want to rely on the book telling you to do it so you do it without thinking about why (i.e. the INTENT), then so be it. But this is what the NCAA book says about penalties:
==============
How and When Completed
ARTICLE 1. a. A penalty is completed when it is accepted, declined or canceled according to rule, or when the choice is obvious to the referee.
=====================
Does not require captains be given a choice.

Next time you are on the sideline at a college or NFL game, watch what happens when Team A false starts. Count the number of times the R goes to the defense for an option. You will not need and fingers to do the counting.

Is there a logical reason for advising when choice is obvious?

Fed R here.

I do not give options when it is obvious. If the captain comes to me, I tell him what we are doing very briefly. If the captain is not near me I give my signal while my U is marking off the penalty and then blow the RFP.

Dale Smith said:

By the way, because the last run ended beyond the neutral zone and there was no change in possession, the RTP foul is enforced from the dead ball spot not the spot of the foul.

Dale, in what situation would roughing the passer ever be enforced from the spot of the foul?

I can't think of one. I was responding to Ed Hickland’s first post on this thread where he said “to enforce the penalty from the spot where the ball was caught.”

TX, Remember the original post? It wasn't about encroachment, false start, sideline warning, illegal substitution or other obvious situations. It concerned a complicated multifoul live ball situation where the offended team catain needed to know his complete options. Too wordy? Yes. But not a place to take a shortcut.
The post read as if the situation took place during a high school game, and not on a college field, which underscores my point eve more so.
As to you snide commetn concerning my standing on the sidleines.
If you were to look closely at the crew's mechanics, after a penalty flag has been thrown, you will see that they confer together prior to R going to the offending team captain, often for a lengthy time. Why?
I have several colleagues who work college, from D-3 through 1-AA, and they do this because it is the correct and professional thing to do, especially ln multi-foul situations. First, to make sure what they have is exactly what they have, and this often involves disagreement. Once they aggree on the penalty, they discuss the options and the results, and when they agree that what they have is what they have, R goes to the offended captain with his options which he describes fully. Then the captain makes his decision. The crew doesn't care how long it takes, but only that they get it right.

Why should it be any different on a Friday night? It shouldn't!

I'll tell you what, if you think a live ball DPI and RTP combined with a completion and followed by a dead ball UC is complicated than you need a few more years of studying. That is a "no brainer". I am not saying anything about not getting everything straight with your crew but once everything has been reported to you, and you give your prelim signals, it SHOULD be immediately obvious what to do and you should instruct the U as to what to do, give your final signals and drive on. Not all "simple" ones are obvious, i.e. 4th and 10 at the B45 and A gets a delay of game. B may or may not want the 5 yards. SO in that case, by all means talk to the captains. All I am saying is do not be a automoton who never thinks. If you are thinking as you do something you realize there is no need to give the kid a chance to screw up.

booker, are you really saying that the OP was one in which the options needed to be explained?

"Son, you can accept the RTP, which puts the ball on your 35, or you can accept the DPI, which puts the ball on your 32. Which do you want?"

Really?

Good grief.

ONE of the two fouls gives them the ball further downfield than the other. Sure - get together with the officials, figure out what everyone has, and where the enforcements will put the ball, and then Signal and walk off appropriately. (That's what they'd do on Saturday, despite your allegations otherwise).

>>Mike, this is a respectful forum, so when you use caps like that, it's disrespectful to anyone responding. We're not children, so, please don't yell at us like we are.<<

Oh, please. He was using caps on one word for emphases, not to be disrespectful. Its patently silly to think otherwise, unless you know a better way to emphasize one word in a sentence on a message board.

It isn't impossible to emphasize a single word. But a person needs to be fairly versed in the tools :D All kidding aside, one word in all caps is not yelling.

According the NF rules, captains should be consulted for ALL penalties (except double fouls). If a captain's decision is obvious, the R should quickly inform him. Do all NF Referees follow the letter of the rule? Probably not and I don't think it hurts anything, but the rule is there to support those who do.

MY EDIT: I am not one who always talks to the captains. I don't even consult captains when we have a dead ball foul prior to the snap (like a false start or encroachment).

My conversation with the captains gets more involved as the choice gets less obvious. If the choice is especially difficult, I will walk a captain over to his sideline so the coach can also hear the options. Ultimately, the coach is the one who makes the decisions anyway. If I see a coach give a signal, I will tell the captain to look over to his coach before I "hear" his decision.







[Edited by mikesears on Nov 23rd, 2005 at 10:12 AM]

REPLY: Yes, the Federation rule book does say that the R, after the down, is supposed to give the offended captain the full description of the consequences of both accepting and declining the penalty. But in the interest of employing some common sense, it makes no sense whatsoever to potentially confuse him when a choice is obvious. In such a case, it's better to say to the captain something like, "We're going to assess fifteen yards from the end of the run for their facemask foul, right captain?" and just start doing it. Don't even give him a chance to make a foolish mistake. Same thing with a DBF after the play. How many of you really go to the captain and explain the consequences of declining such a penalty?

For those that wish to follow the letter of the law in this regard, go ahead. I just think you're setting yourself up for a bigger problem if you do. And...how many of you actually bring in the offending captain to inform him that a foul by his team occurred? The Fed rule says you're supposed to do that as well.

Well, I'm with mikesears, TXMike, etc, if the choice is obvious I ain't askn', I'm tackn'!

And...you really got to know the coach because the "consequences" could be 25-pushups, 10 sets of "go-go's," or run laps after the game!

I agree with those who avoid a lengthly explanation to a captain when the choice is obvious, ie., dead ball fouls, add ons, etc. I was a little relunctant to be on TXMikes side after the flag patch issue, but I'll get over it. LOL
Along this same line, I try to avoid letting the captain make a wrong choice at the coin toss. My options to him are simply, "do you want to receive or defer?" Now I know the purists will take exception to this because I have not given all the options spelled out in the book. If he wants to kick, it's up to him to verballize it or if his first choice is the end of the field he wants to defend, again it is up to him to state this. Usually they either want the ball or defer, consequently I avoid confusing them with anything else.

We've discussed this before. But I'm going to throw this out there again.

When giving options to captains during the coin toss, we have had situations where captains choose to kick. In JV or less our WH explains what will happen if they make that choice. In varsity games, we ask again. And again. And again if necessary.

In one case our WH said, "Let me ask you again. Do you want to DEFER, RECEIVE, ..." and more quietly and quickly "kick, or defend a goal." When again they chose to kick, he said "Are you sure you want to kick? You can defer or receive." Again the captain chose to kick. Once again "Are you sure you don't want to defer or receive?" "We want to kick." Ok. Our WH signaled the choice to kick. Of course their HC was furious, and once we explained what happened, he was furious at his captains, not us.

I know many of you argue that we shouldn't let the captains make dumb mistakes. I agree with our WH though. Give them the options, and let them make the choice. If they choose an obviously dumb option, give it again with emphasis on the right choice. Ultimately it is their game, not ours. What choices they make on the field, either on actions during a play or decisions during penalty and other options, it theirs alone. We can coach, but I don't think we should make decisions for them.

Football is not only a game, but it is a learning tool. And players can learn a lot about a lot more than football, especially in situations such as these. If they choose a dumb option, even after coaching through emphasis, they'll catch on (hopefully).

>>In one case our WH said, "Let me ask you again. Do you want to DEFER, RECEIVE, ..." and more quietly and quickly "kick, or defend a goal." When again they chose to kick, he said "Are you sure you want to kick? You can defer or receive." Again the captain chose to kick. Once again "Are you sure you don't want to defer or receive?" "We want to kick."<<

Don't ask the same question 4 times. Ask it twice and if he says kick both times, then say, "captain, you understand that if you choose to kick, you will be kicking in BOTH halves; is that what you want to do?"

If he says "yes," do it.

If you think you have to ask it 4 times, its obvious he doesn't understand the implications of his answer. 2 times is sufficient to determine that, and it isn't your job to do anything other than a quick explanation, something like what I illustrated above.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Don't ask the same question 4 times. Ask it twice and if he says kick both times, then say, "captain, you understand that if you choose to kick, you will be kicking in BOTH halves; is that what you want to do?"
I disagree. In JV and below I would do that. At varsity, we aren't there to make decisions for them. If 4 hints isn't enough to get them to think, then let them have it.

Exactly. If they don't understand, then they will after their choice. Choices have consequences. I bet they won't make the same mistake again. What have they lost but a bad choice in that one game? They have gained far more than they lost.