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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 10:59am
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Fridays game this situation arose and I am interested in hearing if I missed something.
Play is blown dead and Team A huddles for the next play. Player A12 enters the field and stands just inside the numbers (inside 9 yard mark) off the line of scrimmage and looks over to bench area for play call. QB gets signals from bench and calls play. As A breaks the huddle, player A11 continues to his sideline and leaves the field of play. Team A comes to the line of scrimmage and A12 now establishes himself on the line of scrimmage. At first I was temted to call this as illegal substitution, but player A12 never talked with anyone, did not go into the huddle and was never really in a team formation of any kind. AM I missing something here, or is this a clever way to break the huddle with 12 players on the field??
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Learn to officiate the dead ball situations perfectly, and the live ball plays will take care of themselves. 
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 01:59pm
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Canadian Ruling
Legal play, substitution can be made anytime up until 2 or more A players break the huddle.
Having 18 men on the field is completely legal between plays. Too many men can only be called at the time of the snap.
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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups 
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 05:53pm
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Replaced player A11 must leave the field immediately, if he remained in the huddle I think you could definitely have an illegal substitution.
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Church Basketball "The brawl that begins with a prayer"
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 07:47pm
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Quote:
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 10:49pm
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Substitute A12 that entered the field was INSIDE the numbers (9-yard mark) after the RFP (as required by the rules). He was not intentionally trying to hide out on the sidelines or anything of the nature. The only problem that I can see occuring is that there were 12 members of team A on the field at one time. Rule 2-30-15 stipulates that a substitute becomes a player when he enters the field and communicates with a teammate or an official(which he did not), enters the huddle(which he did not), or is positioned in a formation or participates in the play. By this rule, A12 would not have become a player until he was postioned in the formation after the huddle broke and other players came to the line. It is for this reason I decided not to call anything.
I agree something doesnt smell right about the play... but without adequate rule support and am of the opinon (at the moment) that I made the correct call.
__________________
Learn to officiate the dead ball situations perfectly, and the live ball plays will take care of themselves.
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 11:58pm
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As you describe it I have no problem here. The player wasn't hiding out. They didn't atempt to mask his entry by the use of a substitution. And the replaced player was never communicated with so he is not yet required to leave the field.
As you say, there is no rule justification for a foul here.
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Jim Schroeder Read Rule 2, Read Rule 2, Read Rule 2!
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Mon Oct 31, 2005, 08:29am
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I believe that you have an illegal substitution violation. The rules says that a must break the huddle with 11 players, and according to your description, you had twelve. I would have flagged them for the five yard infraction, not the ten. Difficult situation though.
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Mon Oct 31, 2005, 10:13am
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There is no rule that says it is illegal to break the huddle with 12. The substituted player must leave the field immediately. In this case it appears to me that the player coming on the field stopped and looked back to see what the play was that was being signalled in. That player and the QB got the play at the same time. At that point in time the player being replaced understood he was being substituted for and left the field. It appears to me that there was no attempt to deceive, the substitution did not violate any substitution rule, and there was no illegal formation.
It does appear that the defense could be confused prior to the RFP as to who would be playing for A but there are many substitution situations which we all agree are legal where B doesn't know exactly which 11 players are in the game until after the RFP.
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Mon Oct 31, 2005, 12:00pm
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Doesn't matter how many break the huddle, what matters is that when a substitute reports the player he reports in for must leave immediately.
In the play described, the officiating crew must decide if the team was trying to deceive. If in their judgment he was then you have a flag for IP. Also, if you don't believe a specific rule was broken, but in your judgement a deception occured or could have occured, then impose rules, 10-5-1c and 9-9 where an Unsportsmanlike or IP would be quite acceptable.
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Mon Oct 31, 2005, 03:11pm
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If he's maintaining a position well outside the huddle, I think you'd be justified in judging the player to be "positioned in a formation" and throwing a flag for IS. On the other hand, I can certainly see the case for no flag.
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Thu Nov 03, 2005, 12:10pm
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If Team A broke the huddle and A11 ran directly off the field, I think you can call illegal substitution, dead ball foul 5 yards. What if a Team B defender is following him out of the huddle? Regardless, there are 12 players on the field when the huddle broke and B doesn't know which 11 will be playing.
If nothing else, you have to give the defense time to make a substitution after that which could cause a delay of game on A.
__________________
Steven S. Smith
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Sat Nov 05, 2005, 04:03am
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I agree that a no-call is good here. Sure, by rule, technically this is illegal. A12 obviously knows the next play so he's getting into formation. But there is no deception here. As long as A11 is consistantly leaving the field and they've established this "practice", the defense is going to understand what is going on. Keeping the flags in our pocket here keeps the flow of the game intact.
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Mon Nov 07, 2005, 04:13pm
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Cruise, no offense, buI I have trouble with "technically illegal". As I see it, our job as officials is to interpret and inforce the rules as written and "within the spirit of the game" to create an even and safe playing field. Every crew chief I have talked to and every crew I have worked with in the last ten years, has and will call that for illegal substitution (spirit of the game) and not illegal participation. Professionally, I believe that the coach was playng a game of deception which went beyond the spirit of the game, and needs to know that the crew won't allow that to happen.
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