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-   -   1 point safety (https://forum.officiating.com/football/22997-1-point-safety.html)

Jim S Wed Nov 02, 2005 05:44pm

One of our crews had one in a JV game monday. Fumbled two point try comes to rest at the 2 and B kicks it into and thru the EZ. New force.
(They got it right!
There was some discusion as to whether the signal for this should be just one half of signal 6 ;)

Grey Hare Wed Nov 02, 2005 06:20pm

Jim......Could you provide more details as to why this is a "one point" safety. Thanks.
GH

Bob M. Wed Nov 02, 2005 06:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Grey Hare
Jim......Could you provide more details as to why this is a "one point" safety. Thanks.
GH

REPLY: I'll jump in...since the ball is at rest, there can be no question that B supplied the force that put the ball into their end zone. And since it was a TRY (you might have missed that) and the ball became dead behind B's goal line, A is awarded one point.

Assuming the kick was inadvertent, there's no foul to consider. If the kick was intentional, then the foul needs to be considered. Anyone want to take a shot at A's options if B's kick is ruled an illegal kick?

jfurdell Wed Nov 02, 2005 07:32pm

It's a foul by the defense, so it would be marked from the basic spot. If A's fumbled from behind the neutral zone, mark half the distance from the previous spot. If A fumbled from past the neutral zone, mark it half the distance from there (the end of the run).

(I did cheat and look that up.)

Kirby Wed Nov 02, 2005 07:39pm

With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)

(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40.
(2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try.
(3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45.

Gman34 Wed Nov 02, 2005 08:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby
With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)

(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40.
(2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try.
(3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45.

Are you sure about where the ball would be kicked in 1 or 2?

Jim S Wed Nov 02, 2005 09:05pm

nobody said the kick was illegal.

yankeesfan Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby
With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)

(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40.
(2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try.
(3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45.

if you can take option #3, why would you even consider option #1?

ChickenOfNC Thu Nov 03, 2005 07:51am

We've had discussion about whether they could keep the score and enforce the penalty on the succeeding spot, as with a TD or FG. The book doesn't mention safeties, so we've interpreted that safeties don't apply. We've seen this alot with snaps over the punter's head and he just kicks it through the end zone.

How have you guys handled this?

schwinn Thu Nov 03, 2005 08:00am

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby
With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)

(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40.
(2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try.
(3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45.

I don't have my books here but I don't believe Option 3 is available to A. That option applies only to TD's, FG's and try's but not safeties.

ChickenOfNC Thu Nov 03, 2005 08:21am

That's what I was thinking schwinn

Kirby Thu Nov 03, 2005 09:34am

Jim S - Bob M. asked the question about penalty enforcement in his post if the kick had been ruled intentional.

========

Rule 8-3-5 talks about a foul by B during a successful try being enforced from the succeeding spot. I could find nothing in the rule book that defines "successful try."

I could also not find where it says that you can apply 8-3-5 to only TD's and FG's and not safeties during a try.

I guess it depends on how you interpret a "successful try."
Does a successful try take place when the result of the try is awarding points to A? Or does a successful try take place only when the result of the try is awarding points to A as a result of their intent to score (2 pts for TD, 1 pt for FG)?

[Edited by Kirby on Nov 3rd, 2005 at 09:38 AM]

Kirby Thu Nov 03, 2005 09:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by yankeesfan
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby
With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)

(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40.
(2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try.
(3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45.

if you can take option #3, why would you even consider option #1?

You would not take option 1, but in a situation where there is a foul by B during a scoring play by A they technically have 3 options.

Warrenkicker Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:05am

Wow. Now I have flopped sides of the arguement. I first thought that a successful try was only a touchdown or a field goal. However in the table for point values under rule 8 it says that a safety is also a successful try. So the illegal kick would be enforced on the kickoff after a safety on a try using 10-5-1d.

The Roamin' Umpire Thu Nov 03, 2005 07:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Gman34
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby
With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)

(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40.
(2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try.
(3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45.

Are you sure about where the ball would be kicked in 1 or 2?

Presumably you meant "1 or 3"?

In any event, the spots are correct. 8-3-9 specifies that after a try there will be a kickoff. 6-1-1a specifies that the free kick line for K during a kickoff is it's own 40-yard line.

ljudge Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:44am

Roamin' Umpire: Just curious, are you from PA?

Others - sorry to get off track.

PSU213 Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ljudge
Roamin' Umpire: Just curious, are you from PA?

Others - sorry to get off track.

Sorry to stay off track...are you from PA ljudge?

The Roamin' Umpire Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ljudge
Roamin' Umpire: Just curious, are you from PA?

Others - sorry to get off track.

Nope, I'm a Jersey native (Toms River), but I've been in Troy, NY (near Albany) for the past decade or so.

Bob M. Fri Nov 04, 2005 02:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PSU213
Quote:

Originally posted by ljudge
Roamin' Umpire: Just curious, are you from PA?

Others - sorry to get off track.

Sorry to stay off track...are you from PA ljudge?

REPLY: ljudge, waltjp, and myself are from New Jersey. ljudge is from the Southern chapter, waltjp and I are from the Northern chapter. There is a central chapter and a small Atlantic chapter as well.

PSU213 Sat Nov 05, 2005 03:25am

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: ljudge, waltjp, and myself are from New Jersey. ljudge is from the Southern chapter, waltjp and I are from the Northern chapter. There is a central chapter and a small Atlantic chapter as well.
If I may ask, how large of a geographic area do you cover in the northern chapter? (in the southern chapter for ljudge?)

Just curious...sorry to get us way, way off track now...

sm_bbcoach Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby
With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)

(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40.
(2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try.
(3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45.

Regular safety signal. I'd go to the sidelines and communicate with the pressbox to make sure they gave the defense 1 pt.


Option #3 is not available. The option to accept points and enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot is not available on a safety. It's only available when the
opponent of the scoring team commits a live ball foul on a play which results in a TD (8-2-2), successful field goal (8-4-3) or successful try (8-3-5). They do have Option #2 and it's easy to conceive of a scenario where they
would want to take the penalty, enforce half the distance, and go for two. But it wouldn't be 1/2 the distance from the spot of the illegal kick, necessarily. If the
fumble occurred in or behind the neutral zone, this is a loose ball play, and enforcement would be from the previous spot (the 3yd. line). If the fumble occurred beyond the neutral zone, enforcement is from the end of the run, i.e., the spot of the fumble. On defensive fouls the spot of the foul is never an enforcement spot. A safety is not a successful try since trys can only be 1 pt. by kick that would otherwise be a field goal if it occurred during a regular scrimmage down, or 2 pts.
for what would otherwise be a TD during a regular scrimmage down. 8-3-3. A safety is neither.


Warrenkicker Tue Nov 08, 2005 01:00pm

sm_bbcoach - I was with you until I looked in my rules book. At the top of rule 8 there is a table listing the points values for different scoring plays. It lists a successful try as being a touchdown for 2 points or either a field goal or a safety for 1 point.

8-3-3 During a try, A may score two points from what would be a touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play at other times during the game.

So a safety by A is considered a successful try and thus the penalty can be enforced at the succeeding spot.

sm_bbcoach Tue Nov 08, 2005 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
sm_bbcoach - I was with you until I looked in my rules book. At the top of rule 8 there is a table listing the points values for different scoring plays. It lists a successful try as being a touchdown for 2 points or either a field goal or a safety for 1 point.

8-3-3 During a try, A may score two points from what would be a touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play at other times during the game.

So a safety by A is considered a successful try and thus the penalty can be enforced at the succeeding spot.


I think the key word in this rule is: "FROM WHAT WOULD BE" a touchdown. It is NOT a touchdown, just as a 1 pt try is NOT a field Goal. The book does not give a defination or discussion in the box, just a point summary.

yankeesfan Tue Nov 08, 2005 02:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby
With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)

(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40.
(2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try.
(3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45.

Regular safety signal. I'd go to the sidelines and communicate with the pressbox to make sure they gave the defense 1 pt.


Option #3 is not available. The option to accept points and enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot is not available on a safety. It's only available when the
opponent of the scoring team commits a live ball foul on a play which results in a TD (8-2-2), successful field goal (8-4-3) or successful try (8-3-5). They do have Option #2 and it's easy to conceive of a scenario where they
would want to take the penalty, enforce half the distance, and go for two. But it wouldn't be 1/2 the distance from the spot of the illegal kick, necessarily. If the
fumble occurred in or behind the neutral zone, this is a loose ball play, and enforcement would be from the previous spot (the 3yd. line). If the fumble occurred beyond the neutral zone, enforcement is from the end of the run, i.e., the spot of the fumble. On defensive fouls the spot of the foul is never an enforcement spot. A safety is not a successful try since trys can only be 1 pt. by kick that would otherwise be a field goal if it occurred during a regular scrimmage down, or 2 pts.
for what would otherwise be a TD during a regular scrimmage down. 8-3-3. A safety is neither.


why would the defense get the 1 point? wouldnt the offense get the point?

Kirby Tue Nov 08, 2005 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby
With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)

(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40.
(2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try.
(3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45.

Regular safety signal. I'd go to the sidelines and communicate with the pressbox to make sure they gave the defense 1 pt.


Option #3 is not available. The option to accept points and enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot is not available on a safety. It's only available when the
opponent of the scoring team commits a live ball foul on a play which results in a TD (8-2-2), successful field goal (8-4-3) or successful try (8-3-5). They do have Option #2 and it's easy to conceive of a scenario where they
would want to take the penalty, enforce half the distance, and go for two. But it wouldn't be 1/2 the distance from the spot of the illegal kick, necessarily. If the
fumble occurred in or behind the neutral zone, this is a loose ball play, and enforcement would be from the previous spot (the 3yd. line). If the fumble occurred beyond the neutral zone, enforcement is from the end of the run, i.e., the spot of the fumble. On defensive fouls the spot of the foul is never an enforcement spot. A safety is not a successful try since trys can only be 1 pt. by kick that would otherwise be a field goal if it occurred during a regular scrimmage down, or 2 pts.
for what would otherwise be a TD during a regular scrimmage down. 8-3-3. A safety is neither.


Who said anything about the penalty for the illegal kick being enforced from the spot of the foul? The basic spot and the spot of the foul are two entirely different spots.

Also, I agree with Warren on the availability of Option 3 in this scenario.

[Edited by Kirby on Nov 8th, 2005 at 05:59 PM]

schwinn Tue Nov 08, 2005 06:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
Quote:

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
sm_bbcoach - I was with you until I looked in my rules book. At the top of rule 8 there is a table listing the points values for different scoring plays. It lists a successful try as being a touchdown for 2 points or either a field goal or a safety for 1 point.

8-3-3 During a try, A may score two points from what would be a touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play at other times during the game.

So a safety by A is considered a successful try and thus the penalty can be enforced at the succeeding spot.


I think the key word in this rule is: "FROM WHAT WOULD BE" a touchdown. It is NOT a touchdown, just as a 1 pt try is NOT a field Goal. The book does not give a defination or discussion in the box, just a point summary.

When they say they get two points "from what would be a TD" they are making a comparison and saying that a TD during a try is worth two points. I believe that the option exists for the succeeding spot.

Warrenkicker Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:12am

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
Quote:

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
sm_bbcoach - I was with you until I looked in my rules book. At the top of rule 8 there is a table listing the points values for different scoring plays. It lists a successful try as being a touchdown for 2 points or either a field goal or a safety for 1 point.

8-3-3 During a try, A may score two points from what would be a touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play at other times during the game.

So a safety by A is considered a successful try and thus the penalty can be enforced at the succeeding spot.


I think the key word in this rule is: "FROM WHAT WOULD BE" a touchdown. It is NOT a touchdown, just as a 1 pt try is NOT a field Goal. The book does not give a defination or discussion in the box, just a point summary.

Well I have given you a place in the rule book, and the only one I can find, that says a successful try includes a safety. If you can show me a place that says a safety is not a successful try then I will go with your interpreitation.

Grey Hare Wed Nov 09, 2005 05:08pm

I must agree with Warren Kicker here. It clearly is a "successful try", and as a result the "offended" team A can accept the result of the play and walkoff the penalty from the succeeding spot (the kickoff). Does that seem to make sense?

Quite an unusual play to say the least.

GH

johnnybgood Sat Nov 12, 2005 01:04pm

Defensive point on safety
 
I am not an official, just an average fan.

I understand that in NCAA , the defense be awarded 1 point on a safety by offense.

Can the the defense be awarded 1 point on a safety by offense in nfl or high school. This would not involve change of possession if offense ran backward out of its own end zone 98 yards. What would you announce to the crowd? I understand it says defense cannot score, but is the spirit of this that defense cannot gain possession and attempt its own try (since it was not the one scoring the touchdown). If there is a safety by offense (offense commits huge blunder), and the play meets all of the other standards, is defense awarded one point?

Also, in high school and college, can a placekick or dropkick that is not behind line of scrimmage score a field goal? This was legal in nfl until 1991.

I am pretty sure that the nfl rulebook spells out who receives a kickoff after touchdown, safety, and field goal, without leaving any choice in the matter. What exactly does the high school and college rulebook say in this regard (and if I am wrong about the nfl, where do I find this in the rules, because the section on scoring clearly states who will receive the kick)?


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