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One of our crews had one in a JV game monday. Fumbled two point try comes to rest at the 2 and B kicks it into and thru the EZ. New force.
(They got it right! There was some discusion as to whether the signal for this should be just one half of signal 6 ;) |
Jim......Could you provide more details as to why this is a "one point" safety. Thanks.
GH |
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Assuming the kick was inadvertent, there's no foul to consider. If the kick was intentional, then the foul needs to be considered. Anyone want to take a shot at A's options if B's kick is ruled an illegal kick? |
It's a foul by the defense, so it would be marked from the basic spot. If A's fumbled from behind the neutral zone, mark half the distance from the previous spot. If A fumbled from past the neutral zone, mark it half the distance from there (the end of the run).
(I did cheat and look that up.) |
With no books by my side here's my guess at what options A has :)
(1) Decline the illegal kick and take the results of the play which is a safety (1 point). The ball will be free kicked from the K40. (2) Accept the penalty half the distance to the goalline from the basic spot (not specified in the original post) and re-try. (3) Accept the results of the play (1 point safety) and enforce the 15-yard illegal kicking penalty from the succeeding spot. A will free kick from the B45. |
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nobody said the kick was illegal.
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We've had discussion about whether they could keep the score and enforce the penalty on the succeeding spot, as with a TD or FG. The book doesn't mention safeties, so we've interpreted that safeties don't apply. We've seen this alot with snaps over the punter's head and he just kicks it through the end zone.
How have you guys handled this? |
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That's what I was thinking schwinn
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Jim S - Bob M. asked the question about penalty enforcement in his post if the kick had been ruled intentional.
======== Rule 8-3-5 talks about a foul by B during a successful try being enforced from the succeeding spot. I could find nothing in the rule book that defines "successful try." I could also not find where it says that you can apply 8-3-5 to only TD's and FG's and not safeties during a try. I guess it depends on how you interpret a "successful try." Does a successful try take place when the result of the try is awarding points to A? Or does a successful try take place only when the result of the try is awarding points to A as a result of their intent to score (2 pts for TD, 1 pt for FG)? [Edited by Kirby on Nov 3rd, 2005 at 09:38 AM] |
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Wow. Now I have flopped sides of the arguement. I first thought that a successful try was only a touchdown or a field goal. However in the table for point values under rule 8 it says that a safety is also a successful try. So the illegal kick would be enforced on the kickoff after a safety on a try using 10-5-1d.
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In any event, the spots are correct. 8-3-9 specifies that after a try there will be a kickoff. 6-1-1a specifies that the free kick line for K during a kickoff is it's own 40-yard line. |
Roamin' Umpire: Just curious, are you from PA?
Others - sorry to get off track. |
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Just curious...sorry to get us way, way off track now... |
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Option #3 is not available. The option to accept points and enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot is not available on a safety. It's only available when the opponent of the scoring team commits a live ball foul on a play which results in a TD (8-2-2), successful field goal (8-4-3) or successful try (8-3-5). They do have Option #2 and it's easy to conceive of a scenario where they would want to take the penalty, enforce half the distance, and go for two. But it wouldn't be 1/2 the distance from the spot of the illegal kick, necessarily. If the fumble occurred in or behind the neutral zone, this is a loose ball play, and enforcement would be from the previous spot (the 3yd. line). If the fumble occurred beyond the neutral zone, enforcement is from the end of the run, i.e., the spot of the fumble. On defensive fouls the spot of the foul is never an enforcement spot. A safety is not a successful try since trys can only be 1 pt. by kick that would otherwise be a field goal if it occurred during a regular scrimmage down, or 2 pts. for what would otherwise be a TD during a regular scrimmage down. 8-3-3. A safety is neither. |
sm_bbcoach - I was with you until I looked in my rules book. At the top of rule 8 there is a table listing the points values for different scoring plays. It lists a successful try as being a touchdown for 2 points or either a field goal or a safety for 1 point.
8-3-3 During a try, A may score two points from what would be a touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play at other times during the game. So a safety by A is considered a successful try and thus the penalty can be enforced at the succeeding spot. |
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I think the key word in this rule is: "FROM WHAT WOULD BE" a touchdown. It is NOT a touchdown, just as a 1 pt try is NOT a field Goal. The book does not give a defination or discussion in the box, just a point summary. |
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Also, I agree with Warren on the availability of Option 3 in this scenario. [Edited by Kirby on Nov 8th, 2005 at 05:59 PM] |
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I must agree with Warren Kicker here. It clearly is a "successful try", and as a result the "offended" team A can accept the result of the play and walkoff the penalty from the succeeding spot (the kickoff). Does that seem to make sense?
Quite an unusual play to say the least. GH |
Defensive point on safety
I am not an official, just an average fan.
I understand that in NCAA , the defense be awarded 1 point on a safety by offense. Can the the defense be awarded 1 point on a safety by offense in nfl or high school. This would not involve change of possession if offense ran backward out of its own end zone 98 yards. What would you announce to the crowd? I understand it says defense cannot score, but is the spirit of this that defense cannot gain possession and attempt its own try (since it was not the one scoring the touchdown). If there is a safety by offense (offense commits huge blunder), and the play meets all of the other standards, is defense awarded one point? Also, in high school and college, can a placekick or dropkick that is not behind line of scrimmage score a field goal? This was legal in nfl until 1991. I am pretty sure that the nfl rulebook spells out who receives a kickoff after touchdown, safety, and field goal, without leaving any choice in the matter. What exactly does the high school and college rulebook say in this regard (and if I am wrong about the nfl, where do I find this in the rules, because the section on scoring clearly states who will receive the kick)? |
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