Here's today's Play of the Day:

It is first and 10 on A's 3. Runner A1 fumbles on his 2-yard line. B1 intentionally kicks the loose ball which is: (a) on A's 2; or (b) in the end zone. The ball then goes out of bounds behind the goal line.
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Ruling: Undoubtedly, Team A will decline the penalty in (a) and take the touchback. A will accept the penalty in (b), because declining it would give B a safety.(8.5.1D)Casebook


Ok, Please help me out here. I'm thinking out loud...the result of the play is a touchback. The basic spot is end of run, 2-yard line, so in a) accept the penalty 1&10 A 17; decline 1&10 A 20. Now I'm struggling with b) accept the penalty 1&10 A 17??? and if decline why would it be a safety??

What they're not saying is that in a. they are considering the kick by B to be a new force. Otherwise they would both be a safety if the penalty is declined.
In b. to accept the penalty would give A the ball 1&10 on the 15. The enforcement spot for a foul by the defense in the EZ is the goal line. This is not a loose ball play.
To decline would be a safety since the force that put the ball into the EZ was the fumble by A.

[Edited by Jim S on Nov 2nd, 2005 at 05:55 PM]

Isn't it a loose ball play since A fumbled behind the original line of scrimmage? 10-3-1c

So in b, isn't it first down for A at A's 18 after enforcement?
The basic spot on a loose ball play is the previous spot,
A's 3.

this is not a loose ball play, don't get confused by the fumble.

Okay, why isn't it part of a loose ball play????

Rule 10-3-1 A loose ball play is action duing:
c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble by A from behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.

play was 1st and ten from A's 3 (97 yards to go for a touchdown for A); A fumbles on the 2 yard line; that is behind the neutral zone, when B kicked the ball in the end zone it was a loose ball and team possession had not changed.

So why isn't the basic spot the previous spot?

Someone please explain to me why this isn't a loose ball foul as defined in 10-3-1 and the note highlighted in gray below. I believe it meets the criteria completely. So, in A,wouldn't the basic spot be the previous spot, and the foul by B marked off from there.
Also, how can a safety be involved when the recoverd ball was in the EZ of the offended team, not the team that created the new force?
The initial force is the fumble by A, and the new force is the kick by B.
I understand 8-5-b to read that the new force recovered in endzone of the player who created the new force(B) would result in a safety for that player's team. In this scenario, the ball was recoverd in A's endzone, therefore, there is no safety involved.

(a) B1's illegal kick was a new force and caused the ball to cross over the goal line and go out of bounds. B's force caused the ball to go out of bounds in A's end zone. Results of the play is a touchback. Now let's deal with the foul. This was a foul during a loose-ball play because this was a fumble by A in or behind the neutral zone. The basic spot for a foul with a loose ball is the previous spot. If A accepts the penalty for B's foul, it will be A's ball 1 & 10 at A's 18-yard line.

(b) The force that put the ball into A's end zone was the fumble by A. Once it is in the end zone, the illegal kick by B1 is not a new force. The play results in a safety. A's force caused the ball to go out of bounds in A's end zone. If A accepts the penalty for the foul by B, A will get the ball back 1/10 at A's 18-yard line because this is a foul during a loose ball play.

Booker
1) This is a loose ball play, a fumble by A behind the neutral zone, prior to a change of possession, is part of a loose ball play. However the ball was not recovered, it was kicked by B thru the endzone.

2) The ball in situation A was at the 2 yard line. The ruling that was given is B supplied a new force and it was B's force which put the ball into A's endzone. Since B caused the force which put the ball into and out of A's endzone, it would be A's ball 1st and 10 on the 20 after declining B's penalty and accepting the touchback. If A would accept the penalty it would be a loose ball play and the basic spot would be the previous spot. You would penalize team B 15 yards from the previous spot, and the result would be 1st and 10 from the 18 yard line.

3)The ball in situation B is in the endzone. The force that put the ball in A's endzone was the fumble by A. If A declines the penalty on B the result of the play would be a safety. We all know that A would not decline the penalty. This is still a loose ball play, a fumble by A behind the neutral zone, prior to a change of possession. The basic spot for a foul during the loose ball is the previous spot, so the penalty on B for illegal kicking would be 15 yards from the 3 yard line. The result of the play would be 1st and 10 for A from the 18 yard line.

Fumble in or behind the neutral zone is a loose ball play. Fumble beyond the neutral zone is running play (with a loose ball). 10-3-1c (loose ball play); 10-3-2 (running play); 10-3-3-b (end of the run).

Is too a loose ball play.... I had it at the other end of the field. My bad!

I knew the play to be a loose ball play, so when that was quesioned, it threw me into a tizzy. NOw I feel better.One more quesiton. In B, it's not first down, but second. When A accepts the penalty and a touchback is declared, after the ball is placed at the twenty would it be second and ten, or first and ten?

?????

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking here. The first down which a team will have after gaining possession of the ball is never 2nd down. In fact I have yet to see any foul mentioned in this situation which also carries a loss of down penalty. After a touchback it is always 1st and 10 for the team defending that goal.