Fourth and 15 from K's 26. K34 commits kick catching interference at R's 40 but R45 still gains possession of the ball at R's 40 and runs to R's 45 where he is tackled.

R accepts the penalty making it 4th and 28 for K at their 13.

When does the clock start?

If possible, please cite a rule reference.

This must be a huge difference between NF and NCAA. Under NCAA this is a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the foul. Team B (R) keeps the ball and the clock will start on the snap.

Under NF this is a loose-ball play and thus may be enforced from the previous spot. The other choice for enforcement is R taking the ball at the spot of the foul. Obviously if the penalty is declined it is R's ball at the R 45.

3-4-2a and 3-4-2b3 say that you should start the clock on the RFP.

Yeah, real big difference. NFHS considers this part of a loose ball play and in order for the kickers to be penalized the ball must be returned to the previous spot or the receivers can accept a fair catch at the spot.

The clock does indeed start on the RFP. There is no reason under NF rules to do otherwise.

don't have my books here, but that seems confusing to me, I would think since it was a punt on the last play that it would start on the snap...

devdog - there is no rule I'm aware of that says the clock starts on the snap after a punt.

The relevant rule says to start it on the snap after AWARDING A NEW SERIES to B... which didn't happen here. Fed - start on ready. NCAA - not an issue - R's ball, start on snap.

McCrowder

Why did you dtop the clock then.... I do in fact think the clock was stopped to award B a new series... I cna think of no othere reason why we would stop the clock... therefore the clock shall start on the snap!

REPLY: The NCAA rule is different than that of the Federation. For Federation, you start the clock on the snap <u>when</u> you award B a new series--not because you stopped the clock to <u>apparently</u> award B a new series. Unless you ultimately reset the chains and give B a first down (after all penalties are accounted for) you have not awarded B a new series.

Here we go again... We stopped the clock for an official's timeout to administer the penalty. We did not award R a new series, so we didn't stop the clock for that. We didn't award K a new series either.

So by federation rules, we should start the clock on the RFP.

Rule 3-4-3c says that the clock shall start on the snap.....if the clock was stopped because:

c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

If the penalty had not been enforced or R would have taken an awarded fair catch instead of the distance penalty, then R would have the ball 1st and 10; then the clock would start on the snap.

CBrockett - do you not stop the clock in FED to administer the penalty? That seems confusing, and likely wrong.

Seems to me you stop the clock due to the penalty, walk it off, and then start the clock. Seems rather straightforward to me, and I'm puzzled at the confusion of doing anything differently.

Does anyone feel differently if the clock had been stopped as a result of an incomplete pass on third down prior to the punt?

No, the previous play has nothing to do with this as this foul occurred during the live ball period after the snap.

The only time you look at the last play is if you had a DB foul, such as a FS.

REPLY: Not at all. That play is immaterial to deciding when to start the clock. After all, when you replay a down because of a penalty, do you put the time that the replayed down took back on the clock?

This was interesting. Warrenkicker and just about everyone got the penalty options correct. The clock was another story and the reason for that is the confusing wording in the Rule Book.

Rule 3-4-2a "The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped: (a) For an official's time-out, other than when B is awarded a new series of either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick." That would be applied if the kick catching interference had not occurred.

Or, 3-4-2(b)(3) The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped. That applies because the clock stopped following a legal kick of which R would be awarded a new series, that is, until the penalty is applied.

The Rule Book wording is vague in as much as the complement is used to tell you when to start the clock in the aforementioned situation "action that caused the down to end did not also cause clock to stop."

The clock stopped because there was a change of possession and a new series would be started. Then there was a penalty. So, clock starts on the snap.

For the naysayers what happens to the clock on this play. A's ball 1st and 10 at B's 25. A37 runs for a touchdown but A74 holds at B's 20. A's ball 1st and 15 after the penalty and the clock starts on the snap because the action that ended the down stopped the clock not the penalty.

But if A37 ran to A's 5 the action that ended the down did not stop the clock it was reaching the line to gain that caused the clock to stop for resetting the stakes. Clock would start on the ready.

Ed

I agree with your analysis. I too wish the book was more apparent with these rules, or even a couple of plays in the case book would be helpful.

When these situations occur in my games, I will start on snap.

For those of you who don't agree, starts your clocks on the ready for play. If this is the only thing you mess up, it will still be a well officiated game.

CBrockett

Down Ends
Both conditions must be met. What are ways a down can end?
Rule 4-2-2 defines how a down ends.

1. A down ends when a player touches the ground with a part of his body other than hand or foot or he is held so his forward progress is stopped.

2. Live ball goes out of bounds.

3. Simultaneous catch.

4. A free or scrimmage kick breaks the plane of R's goal line. (Touchback or successful field goal or try).

5. Simultaneous recovery of a loose ball, a loose ball nobody is attempting to secure, or if something other than things specified touches the ball inbounds.

6. Kickers catch or recover a scrimmage kick or free kick beyond the neutral zone.

7. Following a valid or invalid fair catch signal.

8. Following a touchdown or field goal.

9. Following an inadvertent whistle.

10. When the ball carries loses his helmet.


Clock Stops
Then we must ask when we stop the clock? Rule 3-4-4
1. Down ends following a foul.

2. An officials timeout is taken

3. TV/Radio Timeout is taken or charged team timeout.

4. Period ends.

5. Ball is out of bounds.

6. Forward pass is incomplete.

7. Score or touchback occurs.

8. Fair catch is made.

9. Inadvertent whistle is sounded.

Clock Starts
Now when do we start the clock?

1. If the clock was stopped for an officials timeout (and we had an officials timeout following the change of possession), clock starts on the ready. The clock only starts on the snap if either team IS awarded a new series following a legal kick or if B is awarded a new series.

2. When the ball becomes dead following a foul, we start the clock on the ready unless the action the causes the down to end (see above) also causes the clock to stop (also see above).

My Understanding


#1 under Clock Starts applies. The clock was stopped for two officials timeouts. (Rules 3-5-7c & j).

#2 does not apply because none of the conditions for stopping the clock AND the down ending apply.

In the original play, which of the two conditions have been met?

In the play with the touchdown, which two conditions were met that caused the clock to stop and the down to end? #8 under down ends and #7 under stopping the clock.