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Fri Oct 21, 2005, 09:34pm
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We had a call tonight in our varsity game that I would like an official interp on. I will ask my rules guy on Monday. It was 3rd and goal on the 8 yard line with :08 left in the half. The receiver runs his route (I believe a out pattern) toward the front pylon. The defender tried to come up and make a play on the ball but slipped and fell in the mud. The receiver tripped over him and out came two flags from HL and BJ. The home sideline was going nuts screaming about incidental contact.
I went in and asked both what they had to which both said DPI (both are EXCELLENT officials by the way). The LJ came in and said the defender fell. Note - the LJ's receiver just lolly gagged on his side and both the defender and receiver on his side just stood there so that's why the LJ got to see it. Any way, I asked both HL and BJ if the defender fell. They both had agreed he slipped in the mud. So the conversation became a rules interpretation. In the end I decided to waive the flag and the visiting coach went absolutely nuts. I told both I would take 100% responsibility and be accountable for waiving the flag if I turned out to be wrong. I was watching the QB so I didn't see anything. I simply asked questions and made an interpretation decision based on the responses. In the end he would have had to kick a field goal anyway because he had only :04 after the play, but I realize that's not the point. 
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Fri Oct 21, 2005, 11:30pm
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Sounds like you guys came to the right conclusion to me. That's not even a foul in basketball.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 12:43am
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I don't want to toot the same horn but based on your original info I commend you for talking about the call with everyone who saw it and getting it right. I think that should I have had the same situation arrive during one of my games we would have done the same thing.
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 01:57am
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While I would commend and stand behind any call you guys made on the field, especially after getting together and talking about it, I do think this one brings up some good discussion points.
Did the defender truely slip in the mud? How close was he to the receiver? Was he in position to make a play or could the slip/dive be a desperation move? We didn't see the play but I as a back judge would try to factor all these in on a play as described.
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 10:05am
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I guess you have to see it to call it. The defender could have slipped and still contacted the defender to cause pass interference. He did hinder his path to the ball. One flag i could see but with two flags on the play I would have to think twice especially with 2 EXCELLENT officials officials making the same call.
[Edited by andy1033 on Oct 22nd, 2005 at 11:14 AM]
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 10:50am
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Quote:
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 10:55am
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Based upon the description of the play, B was not playing the receiver and simply slipped. I have a difficult time penalizing because a player slipped on a muddy field. Sounds like a correct decision to me.
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 10:58am
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Probably/definately a gotta see it play.
But, what if the receiver and defender are running side by side along the sideline while the ball is in the air and the defender stumbles over a turf monster and trips - as he's going down he causes the receiver to trip? Does it make a difference if the defender is behind the receiver? What if only the receiver is looking for the ball? What if they're both looking? The more I think about all the variables the more I think this should be DPI. If B slips in the mud it's hard to argue that he was making a play for the ball and he did impede A in his attempt to catch the pass. (BTW - that's post 300 for me! Do I win anything?)
__________________
I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more cowbell!
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 11:18am
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Quote:
I do not see how you can call DPI if he does not trip, or something else to prevent the pass from being caught. You would have to see it, but I think if we saw it we would probably call it the same. I think they got the original play called properly, no DPI.
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 02:50pm
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For me, the judgement should be something like this..
Defender slips and falls and is laying on the ground, receiver runs over him and trips= incidental Defender slips and falls and takes out the feet of the receiver because of the fall= DPI
__________________
Church Basketball "The brawl that begins with a prayer"
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 05:45pm
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Quote:
LJ said nothing about the defender falling into the receiver's legs.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 05:53pm
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The defender tried to come up and make a play on the ball but slipped and fell in the mud. The receiver tripped over him and out came two flags from HL and BJ.
It was not a matter of defender just falling down. He came up to make a play on the defender and tripped him. DPI maybe in basketball if a defender comes up to make a play on the dribbler and slips and trips him its not a foul. But in football if you come up to make a play on a reciever and take his path away its a foul. [Edited by andy1033 on Oct 22nd, 2005 at 06:58 PM]
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Sat Oct 22, 2005, 08:50pm
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Here are my random thoughts on the play:
First, as someone mentioned before, there is a difference between accidental and incidental. Based on the description this was definitely accidental, but not necessarily incidental. (In fact, the NF rules specify an additional penalty if the interference is intentional--thereby implying that PI can be accidental.) Rule 7-5-10a in part says that PI occurs when "Any player of A or B...interferes with an eligible opponent's oppotunity to move toward, catch, or bat the pass." Based on that the defender would have to do something, even if it is accidental, to interfere with the receiver. In other words, just laying there and having the receiver trip over the defender is not enough for PI. IMHO, I would say that if the B player slipped on the mud and slid into the receiver, you would have DPI. If he falls, stops sliding, and the receiver trips over him, then I don't see a foul.
__________________
If the play is designed to fool someone, make sure you aren't the fool.
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Sun Oct 23, 2005, 10:05pm
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Receiver is entitled to the line of the route he has established. If defender is running along side the receiver and they get tangled up and both fall, then I'd judge that incidental and no foul. However, in this case you state the defender made a play on the ball and slipped in the mud causing the receiver to trip over him. Sounds like the defender cut in front of the receiver, ahead of his route/line. If that's the case, I've got a flag, regardless of whether is was accidental of not. It may have been accidental, but it was not incidental.
My other thought on this play is that you've just waived off 2 flags by 'excellent' officials on a play you didn't even see, using input from the official on the opposite side of the field. Who/What initiated the discussion on this foul? Sounds like the screaming from the home side talked you into doubting your crew and maybe the LJ wanted to keep the coaches on his side happy? There is no way I'd wave off 2 flags when I didn't see the play.
__________________
Bayou Ump
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Mon Oct 24, 2005, 11:00am
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Good comments. Just to be clear both officials mentioned when the LJ brought it up that the defender definitely fell down and I told them if they felt strongly about their call then we can definitely let their call stand. I told them flat out I would not unilaterally waive their flag and that it was a crew decision. Like I said it became a rules interp discussion more than anything.
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