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Wed Oct 19, 2005, 11:22pm
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Take into account that this guy played four years of college football and is now coaching a 9-year-old pee-wee team with which he had no prior affiliation, and the fact that he lived in the same residence hall with me for three of those four years, and the fact that he's one of the worst offensive linemen in the history of the University of Tennessee and shouldered a lot of responsibility for that crappy 2002 season -- I really took great pleasure in dumping this guy tonight.
Fourth play of the game, Team A already down 7-0 (B returned an interception for a TD on the second play from scrimmage). I am the referee (coincidentally, only my second time as the R in a youth game). A runs a sweep left and just about the time the runner gets to the corner, A7 (a back) blocks B93 below the waist -- no doubt about it. I flag it, continue to officiate. Play ends, I give the signal..... ....All of a sudden, this 6-7, 320-pound former Southeastern Conference lineman is bearing down on me, yelling, "That's bullcrap, etc., etc." So I flag him immediately, and since he came on the field after me, I give him the gate without the second USC. Thought he was going to fight me for a few minutes (I'm not exactly small at 6-4, 275, but I didn't want to tangle with him -- although I'm sure he couldn't block me if I were rushing his quarterback), but luckily the authorities came in and took him away. Among his reasons why my call was wrong: --There's no such thing as a "chop block" in "little league" --He was "in the box" (he wasn't) --It was by a back, so it had to be legal --Blocking below the waist is perfectly legal in "little league" and he would go get his rule book right now and show me why I was wrong. What a loser. Of course, it was their last game of the season, so it really won't affect anything. Oh, and his team lost 30-12. 
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Thu Oct 20, 2005, 10:11am
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The Pop Warner League here in So. Or. awards the scoring team 1 point for what would be a TD and 2 points for a kick. They figure this will encourage the kicking game. In 5 years working PW ball I've seen three attempts. One was actually good.
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Thu Oct 20, 2005, 11:18am
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bigwes I would consider his act flagrant and you tossing him was probably appropriate. One thing to keep in mind as the R and it usually avoids problems although it may not in your case.
In my preGame meeting with coaches I always tell them they're in good hands with my crew. I say things like "let's keep the lines of communications open...if you have a question about a ruling please ask me and I'll give you an explanation." I go on to say that I'll do this if it doesn't disrupt the game and if it's a technical rule that I feel warrants explanation I'll always stop the game (I rarely go that far - maybe only once or twice). It goes a long way in my mind in building a rapport with a coach. forksref - we too have 1 point PAT's. It's not to encourage 9-year olds to kick. The football league knows they can't kick and wants to allow for PATs to remain part of their game so they allow for a 1-point conversion via normal scrimmage play and 2 points for a kick. Our seniors (8th / 9th graders) we use normal Fed Try rules.
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Thu Oct 20, 2005, 12:28pm
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I always try to approach my games, especially as WH, as a new beginning even if I know the coach can and will be a problem. I try to use the experience to help me improve my conflict resolution skills. Whenever I thought about a coach ejection afterward I thought I probably could have avoided it by using a difference approach then the one I did. To defuse the situation is much more rewarding then tossing some overzealous emotional jerk. This year Ive left my second flag in by bag. The few times I went for it helped me to slow down, remain calm, keep my voice even and unemotional. Ive even used the verbal Judo talked about in this month Ref Mag on some coaches and Ive defused most situations. Just some thoughts.
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Thu Oct 20, 2005, 02:15pm
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We have 2 pt Kicked PAT's here, and one team has a 9-year old that kicks them consistently (I'd say 80% success).
And I agree he warranted the tossing without a 2nd offense.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Thu Oct 20, 2005, 02:51pm
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Actually, I misspoke. The score was 8-0, and the 2-point try was a kick. The winning team converted 3 of 4 kick attempts in the game, and didn't even use a tee.
Another question, now that I think about it (and at the risk of hijacking my own thread: In the second game of the night (the ejection happened in the third game), Team A scored a TD and was about to attempt the PAT by kick try. They did not have a tee (and had to borrow the other team's tee for kickoff attempts, for that matter). They snapped it, and the holder stuck his shoe out, put the ball on it, and they kicked it. I'm not sure that it even crossed the goal line, it was so bad. But I told the coach that holding the ball on the shoe was not allowed...of course, "They've let us do it all year." I know it's not legal -- you can either use a legal tee or kick it off the ground -- but should I let that go at the 9- and 10-year-old level?
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Thu Oct 20, 2005, 03:17pm
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I never take pleasure at ejecting any player or coach. This is not personal just the rules of the game. Sounds like you have something out for this guy. He may have deserved it but no need to add your personal feelings to it.
In a Place kick the ball must be held on the ground or on a tee. 2 23 7 At this level I would allow it and tell the coach to use a tee or the ground next time. [Edited by andy1033 on Oct 20th, 2005 at 04:52 PM]
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Thu Oct 20, 2005, 10:05pm
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bigwes, do you work any with Lil Phil Hatcher?
I too nearly dumped a coach tonight. I probably should have with the history and what went on. Last week I had a school that has had my crew doing their games for years tell me I'll never be back on their field. I smile, say thank you, and explain that I'm tired of doing them a favor. Coach makes a big deal about it but it is really a weight off my shoulder as I have some close business relations with the system. Now I have them coming to another school. They know what happend last week and are sure that I'm going to stick it to them. Don't know why they are that stupid. I have nothing to gain and lots to lose if I do. So, they have a hot head coach who starts yelling that their QB was roughed after they were successful with a pat. I look at him and shake my head like he's an idiot. He keeps on and I finally say "Fine Einstein, I'll throw the flag, take the points off the board, give you half the distance and let you try again. Will that make you feel better or would you just like to see me drop the flag, signal the penalty, and signal that you decline it?" He mumbles something else and I remind him that there is a coaches box an he is more than welcome to get in it. He steps back, not in the box, and glares at me. I think flag first, then I think that is probably what he wants so I just go on. Later in the game they try a reverse and get dropped for about a 10+ yard loss. The runner kickes the defender as he stands up. Since he barely made contact I just flag it and tell the coach that he may want to take the kid out and let him think about what he did for a play or so. He has the nerve to say "You do the officiating and I'll do the coaching." To which I reply "Fine, I'll just mark off another 15 on your UC and think real hard about whether or not to sit the kid out of the game for you." What the heck goes thru these coaches minds?
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Fri Oct 21, 2005, 01:23am
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BTW, You didn't mention the rule system for the game, but in Fed, if B commits a foul during a successful try, A may either accept the penalty and replay the down or accept the result of the play and enforcement of the penalty from the succeeding spot (kick off).
__________________
See the ball, insure its dead Then the whistle, not ahead
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Fri Oct 21, 2005, 01:28am
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Fri Oct 21, 2005, 06:47am
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It was Fed and they do have the option of the succeeding spot. The problem was, IMO, there was NO Roughing in the first place. And I initially indicated that by shaking my head no. After the play I tell the QB it was clean. Coach continues and that's when shake my head again. It was just an opportunity for the coach to show his backside. He hasn't a clue what his options are and neither do any of his other coaches and players. I figure when I recommend the option I gave he will shut up. It worked. He asked that the penalty be enforced from the succeeding spot, I would have reminded him that there was no penalty to begin with.
I'm quite aware of how to handle situations. That was one where the coach needed to be put in his place. I don't believe that is the best way to officiat but for this guy from this team, it had to be done and it was successful. Dropping a flag to handle that situation would have just fueled the fire. The mouth wouldn't have stopped if I had just walked away.
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Fri Oct 21, 2005, 08:15am
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"I just flag it and tell the coach that he may want to take the kid out and let him think about what he did for a play or so. He has the nerve to say "You do the officiating and I'll do the coaching." To which I reply "Fine, I'll just mark off another 15 on your UC and think real hard about whether or not to sit the kid out of the game for you.""
Yuck. Why would you make ANY suggestions as to how to discipline the kids. I think the coach's response here was TOTALLY warranted, and you flagging him for it is extremely over-officious.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Fri Oct 21, 2005, 11:33pm
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Good question. FR game. Most coaches at that level, in our area, ask that you let them know if you have any problems with someone so that they can take them out and talk to them. So, it is very common, even recommended in our assoc that we let coaches know about problems and give them opportunities to take kids out before we have to. The coach had been real bush, just as the players for whom he had set an example, and I was trying to let him know we were still willing to give them a little leash if they would handle it.
Ejecting the kid for the flagrant act at that level would have appeared "over-officious" as well and would have created much more of a problem with the coach(es), players, fans, etc.. Now we are out to get them and we hear it the rest of the game. Was it the right way to handle a situation? Probably not but it was the only thing that was going to work with that bunch. As a result of how this situation was handled, there were no more bush comments or fouls from the players and coaches of that team. They finally got in the coaches and players box and started to play football rather than whatever else they were doing.
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