High school coaches know when to stop but youth coaches are often worst than the kids they "coach". Thought maybe I would start a post about funny things these guys have done this season.

Team losing by a lot with a few minutes left to go. The opposition has the ball 4th down and makes a first down by about a yard. Coach starts complaining they should get the first from across the field. Assistant says, "Measure."

Measurement confirms first down for the other team. Coach starts complaining you ought to give it to us because we are losing. Tell the coach, "Enough."

Next play opposition runs for a touchdown. Hear comes the coach now clapping and saying, "See what you did." Tell the coach I have heard enough and get back in the box. He keeps up his tirade. I tell him, "that's enough!" and toss the flag.

Still doesn't shut up. Finally, "Coach!" I said, "I have heard enough."

Not to be outdone, he responds, "I'm not finihsed, yet!"

To which my response was to reach in my pocket, get out the second flag and inform him, "Now you are."

Ed, I think your biggest mistake was telling him that was enough multiple times. I'm going to tell youth coaches only once, then I'm flagging. I would not have told him enough after the first flag, if hes not smart enough to shutup after the first flag then he will be tossed. I would have immeditely flagged when he said "See what you did."

I have very little tolerance for youth coaches. They just don't know when to stop.

What took so long?

<i>I have very little tolerance for youth coaches. </i>

I'm with you, brother.

Today's freshman game, NF rules:

Same coach is yelling about an un-catchable pass, that his quarterback is outside the tackles on an intentional grounding call and then on same intentional grounding call that the pass went beyond the line of scrimmage.

The question that went through my head was, “How can this coach be so ignorant about high schools, but yet know that the pass must pass the LOS in NCAA?”

We figured that when his player was the first to touch the pass after going out of bounds that he would not understand illegal touching.

My tolerance for youth coaches ended many years ago when I stopped doing those games.

Ya know, I get so sick and tired of guys that think they're "too good" to work these lower level games. You wonder why kids in HS are getting more and more out of line all the time. It's because these youth games are left to the 1st-3rd year officials who really don't know how to handle them, and, like the original poster, they give too much leeway. Throw the damn flags for cryin out loud, and give some deserving coaches/players an early shower a time or two. That alone will go a long way in cleaning up some of this $hit!!

Maybe it has to do with the fact that officials don't want to work that crap. It isn't worth their time to be harassed, why put up with that crap?

Ditto.

I've had fewer problems with youth coaches than I have with youth parents. They're the real psychos.

For the most part (with exceptions that we can all name), I've found the few youth coaches I've had to deal with to be guys who really care about teaching and making sure the kids have fun, and they haven't given officials much, if any, stick.

Travel basketball coaches, now I've had it with them. I'm retired from basketball because of that crap.

I find that freshman football coaches are pretty good, and the middle school coaches I've had have been pretty good (except for not knowing the rules).

I had one guy (this is a 7th grade coach, now) riding me the whole first half last week and I finally said, "Coach, would you like to do this?"

He said, "No. No, I wouldn't." And didn't say anything else to me the rest of the game.

But I've had more positive experiences than negative ones with youth, freshman, and lower level football coaches. And I've hosed a couple of them with inadvertent whistles and they've been cool about it.

There's pain in the *** coaches at every level in every sport. I don't know that one level has a monopoly on them.

This past weekend, a couple of my buddies from basketball were officiating my 7th grade son's football game. We were winning by 10 points and had the ball. The opposing coach called a TO with 4 seconds left in the game. When we resumed play, the referee blew his whistle as soon as the ball was snapped and called game. He knew their coach still had another TO.

Had a coach surprise me last week. His team is on defense and gets called for DPI. ASSistant coach is yelling that the pass wasn't catchable. Head coach quite forcefully says, "Shut up! That's the college rule. This is a high school game!" He eventually lost 34-6 but he earned a little more respect from me.

The problem with youth sport is that the parents run it. There is no governing body that has any guts to clean it up. It is for the gratification of the fathers who think they are all Vince Lombardi and only care about winning. Granted, there are those who are reasonable, but the idiots are the ones in control. That is why I rarely do non-school games. And to blame officials who chose not to do this crap for the behavior of high school kids is ludicrous! Don't be blaming me for the behavior of high school kids! That is typical passing the buck. The behavior of high school kids is based on PARENTS and high school COACHES!!

i stopped workiing rec ball last year. it takes to long to travel to an area that has a good program 2 counties over and the one closest to me has at least one good assault a season. i don't want to be the next.

Between FB and BB I have done alot of youth games in the past years. There are times when I think that it doesn't matter and it isn't worth my time. . . .and then there are times when I truly enjoy facilitating and even teaching at some points. I agree whole-hartedly with travel BB coaches being completely out of hand, I think FB is easier to deal with.

One that note, don't be afraid to call a T in BB or toss the flag in FB, and if you are going to do it, don't wait till the very end of the game when you have been letting the coaches get away with murder already. Hop on this stuff right away, as soon as it develops and before people get overly frustraited, it will leave you with a better outcome then will warning coaches a half a dozen time. Once is enough.

Several of you said I waited too long to toss the first flag and in one way I have to agree.

However, this coach's team was losing by a big margin and the last thing I wanted to do was to penalize these kids for the antics of their "coach." The game is not coach vs. official. Without the kids there would not be coaches and officials. It is a sad commentary that too many of these "coaches" take the game so seriously that the kids never really learn about the "thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" in the proper context. The real truth is there are no losers on the field. To take time to practice, learn plays and apply the proper discipline defines a winner. I don't want to be the official who takes the spirit away.

Throwing the deserved flag is not penalizing the kids at all. The coach, by acting like a horse's ***, is the one penalizing the kids. You are simply enforcing the consequences of his being an idiot. And if you fail to do so, the coach will never learn and he will continue to penalize the kids all season which will hurt them much worse than 15 yds in some game they will most likely forget about in a week.

Ed - your comments here at the end struck a note. I think that is a BIG part of the difference. At Varsity, JV, 9th, and even 8th and 7th to almost the same degree, the coaches have a direct responsibility to their schools, and if they are continually getting flagged or tossed at their games, their schools would eventually fix the problem one way or another. Knowing this, MOST of those coaches are relatively sane. And knowing this, officials (self included) will flag a coach when he goes too far.

At youth ball, this is not true. They do not really answer to much of a higher power, and even where they do, their livelihood is not at stake should they be removed. And most won't be removed - NO ONE has enough volunteers as it is. Knowing this, many of them are horses asses. And knowing this, most officials will NOT flag a coach that has gone the same "too far" as a high school coach. Most will take MUCH more abuse before stopping the situation, as there is more of a reluctance to penalize "the kids" at that level (self included). I believe many of us feel guilty punishing 8 year old kids for the antics of a jaggass coach, whereas we would not feel guilty throwing that very same flag in a JV game.

the true problem is you have a governing board for the leagues and an assoc of officials that allows the situation to continue. In our area, we are highly encouraged by both the youth football board and our assoc to flag out of control coaches. A coach that gets tossed from a game is required to appear before the board, not to explain his actions, but to explain why he should be allowed to continue coaching at all. If the people in charge refuse to take a stand, then you are indeed stuck with the inmates running the assylum.

It ain't about "don't penalize the kids". That's a bunch of bunk. You throw enough flags on the coaches antics, and eventually the parents are gonna call for his head.

this is also what's going on to curb problems in the high school arena.

"11. “ETHICS IN SPORTS” POLICY
Coaches are reminded of the new “ETHICS IN SPORTS” Policy approved by the Board of Managers on June 7, 2005

Any coach, player, team attendant, or spectator ejected by a contest official from any contest for any reason, at any
level, is suspended indefinitely from participation, practice, or attending (site and sound) any sports contest, until a meeting is scheduled between the school administration, coach, player, and custodial parent(s)/guardian(s) with CIFSDS staff member(s). Meetings will be scheduled at a time to be announced. There is no appeal of the Commissioner’s decision. Telephonic and electronic meetings are not permitted. Additionally, any person ejected (coach, player, spectator) is required to attend a CIFSDS Ethics In Sports Sportsmanship Meeting, which will be held at a time to be announced. Failure to attend the sportsmanship meeting will result in immediate suspension of athletic eligibility or attendance (site and sound) at contests or practices until such time as the ejected person attends a Sportsmanship Meeting. (Effective July 1, 2005.)"

in otherwords, take the hard stance & enforce it or quit complaining about it.

I started my career volunteering my officiating skills 5 years ago and continue to do so today. Every Sat. morning I show up at the field dressed in official uniform and assume control over the games being played. I have mentored high school football players to assume the various officiating positions. It does take effort on my part to do this, but it begins to build officiating interest in these young folks and they are good at what they do.

I try to practice preventive officiating with every game. I have an individual pregame meeting with each coach and outline my officiating platform.
Points stressed:

All of us are volunteers.
This is youth level football and not the Super Bowl!
Player Safety is first and foremost.
It must be a positive experience for players, coaches, fans, and officials.
We are here to teach these kids the fundamentals of football and not to be punative.
We as officials will call a fair and conscientious game and
our decisions are the final word.
They (the coaches) must agree to this contractualy and affirm this verbally. If for some reason they have a problem with doing this, I walk off the field and leave them to their own devices. (This has never happened.)

I also do JV, HS games during the season.

I work as many youth games as I can, and enjoy every minute of it. Around here, our youth games are usually three game sets (6th grade, 7th grade, 8th grade) and you end up working from 4:30 until about 9 - it's exhausting! Add to my varsity, JV and freshman schedule and that makes 11 games in a recent 12 day period. We do a lot of talking to the kids - good block, nice run, keep your hands in, try to stay still in your 3-point stance, etc. After a while, they start talking to us and they get to trust us and like us!

You do the same with the coaches because most of them don't know a lot about the game. They're giving of their free time because nobody else would coach the team. When they say something stupid, you just tell 'em "That's on Sunday coach." It doesn't take them long to figure out that they don't know the rules, and then they come to you and ask about them - that's your chance to educate and enlighten. They get to know you and when they see you on the street - they say hi and they say thanks! Also - it helps if you offer to come in and work with the coaches so they understand the rules.

These games are also great for working on mechanics, a weakness or trying something new. And after 22 years, it's our duty to help out the young refs who are working these games so that when we finally have to hang it up, there's someone there to blow the whistle for that first kickoff every Friday night.

I'm not too good to work these games, rather I choose not to work them. We don't have assigning associations where I live, so it's not a matter of me turning those games down, but rather not seeking them in the first place.

My first season here I worked youth games. About 6 weeks in, the program decided they didn't want an official flagging coaches who came onto the field to get in official's faces. Well, that means I quit.

Last season I had an eighth grader direct an f-bomb right at me. Ejected him on the spot. Coach came onto the field and threatened me. Kid said he'd put a cap in my a$$. Went to the house.

Haven't worked any of that nonsense since. I can do HS fall baseball on Saturdays, make $90, and not have my blood pressure challenged.

I once said something like this to a youth coach. His reply - Why would you only call that on Sunday?

Everyone has to make their own decisions regarding life. Some people have special skills which allow them to overcome adversity and turn these situations into positive experiences for all involved. This is the essential meaning of life. 5 years ago I was diagnosed with a life threatening cancer and given a 6 month life expectancy. I chose not to accept those parameters and assumed the attitude that I would survive at whatever the cost was in terms of treatment and mental fortitude. I gave up the mental burden of being judgemental and vowed to assume a positive mental attitude in all of the aspects of my life. I am thankful to be alive to enjoy the great things that life has to offer, including officiating those Sat. morning Youth football games!

Ralph Waldo Emerson once said:
"What lies behind us? And what lies before us,
are tiny matters,
Compared to what lies within us."

Peace,

as a youth coach and an official i can add a little to this. not all youth coaches are uneducated in the rules. granted most are, but not all.

in our youth program we have to apply to be a coach and only after our advisory board has ok'd us can we coach in any capacity. unlike high school coaches who get to hand pick their staffs, i am stuck with whatever parents feel like voluntering their time. granted i am lucky to have a good group of coaches who will listen to me and know most of the rules, but i do have one who knows nothing but how he played and only knows the fans rules. he has made it very hard for me this year with communicating with the officials because he is constantly arguing calls and no calls. i have told him many times if he has a problem to talk to me so i can talk to the ref's (since they are only supposed to talk to the HC anyways). but he refuses to do this because i have told him many times that he has no legitimate argument or beef with the officials and their calls and to just let it go. it has gotten so bad that i have warned him that the first flag he gets thrown on him i will personally escort him to the bleachers and sit him there for the rest of the season, and have told the officials that if they have to throw the flag then please do, even though i am the one that will get in trouble for it.

in our league also, we have a pre season meeting that at least the head official is at and we discuss new rules and interpretations. it has helped some, but you still get some coaches that get caught up in the moment and get over excited about calls. i myself have gotten that way on more than one occasion this year, and have been flagged for it.

but i will also say that some of the refs out there are only there to make the extra buck and could care less about communicating with any coach or player. case in point happened a couple of games ago. at the end of the game we finally found a pass play that was gaining good yardage for us and we were moving the ball quite well. after an incomplete pass with 3 seconds still left on the clock, the head official refused to spot the ball and let the clock run down, again after an incomplete pass. i was very upset at this and considered it very unprofessional of him to do and let him know my feelings about it after the game. he just looked at me, smirked and said "your kids played such a great game why does it matter?" well to me it mattered alot because we hadnt had a sustained drive all game, and finally when we got one he took it out of our hands. granted we were losing 28-0 at the time, but the score shouldnt matter in a game, especially when kids are involved. it is officials like this that make some of the coaches act the way they do.

being both a youth coach and an official has taught me when i can open my mouth and how far i can take a discussion before i cross the line. and there are times when i get real close to that line, but i always have the respect for the officials that i would expect to be given by a coach if i were the one with the whistle. granted not all of them deserve it, but i still show them the respect.

one of the first things i tell the officials who actually have a pregame conference with me is that i just want my kids to have a fair shot at playing, and most after hearing that show me, as a coach, a little more respect. we are all (both coaches and officials) out there to teach the game to the players, and should think of that first and foremost.

I agree that most coaches at the youth level have no clue what they are doing. I had a couch in a 75lb National (lowest skillset level) game earlier in the year yell at me for a false start. His Tackle jumped out of his stance early and the coach is yelling at me that the ball didn't move. Later in that game the coach was ejected for league code of conduct violations that the Linesman heard.

In a second round playoff game this past sunday night I had the losing coach tell the white hat for that game we thru to many flags. The majority of the flags were agianst the winning team (Illiegal shifts and holding).

It is just funny to me that these youth clubs will let anyone be a coach.

Someday, I want to coach.

And having been an official will be very, very helpful, I think.

They pretty much have the same problem that official's associations have. Getting people to do the job. This is not an excuse for them not knowing the rules, just an answer to your question.
The problem is also that "I played ***** and I know what's what."
"UH HUH!!!"

Worse situation? Three season ago, our three man crew was trapped and surrounded for fourty-five minutes in a parking lot by a a large mob of parents, coaches, and players who believed we lost the game for them. They lost by three touchdowns. The state patrol had to be called, and only then were we allowed to leave.
But, the really bad ones are the male coaches for girl's fast pitch softball. They're nuts!

Well, can you blame them. Due the incompetence of the officials their children will not be getting the eight inch trophy. Instead, they will be getting a tiny six inch trophy. Add that to the damage to the self esteem of the parents and coaches who live vicariously through the athletic performance of their seven year olds, and you have a recipe for disaster. Now, maybe you'll think twice before you "screw over" that team again.

"but i will also say that some of the refs out there are only there to make the extra buck and could care less about communicating with any coach or player.”

I don’t officiate football but do a ton of basketball and I work youth games all year long, even during the HS season if I have the time. I know a lot of guys who do it to make extra money but I don’t know anyone who does it JUST for the money. This is a mentality that coaches and parents presume but none of us want to go out there and embarrass ourselves.

“case in point happened a couple of games ago. at the end of the game we finally found a pass play that was gaining good yardage for us and we were moving the ball quite well. after an incomplete pass with 3 seconds still left on the clock, the head official refused to spot the ball and let the clock run down, again after an incomplete pass.”

You were there and I wasn’t so you know better. However, are you sure there was 3 seconds left? Are you sure you know all the facts here?

“it is officials like this that make some of the coaches act the way they do.”

Again, this is another mentality amongst coaches. IMO, we are all responsible for our own actions. Whatever happened to teaching good sportsmanship no matter what? I understand though…..we live in an “it isn’t my fault society”, and you shouldn’t be held responsible for your own actions.

“being both a youth coach and an official has taught me when i can open my mouth and how far i can take a discussion before i cross the line. and there are times when i get real close to that line,”

Why even get close to the line? Besides, who set the standard for that line that day? Not to sound arrogant but if you coached in one of my basketball games, you’d learn real quick that your line is very close to you. Coaches are there to coach and not to worry about what I’m doing.

“but i always have the respect for the officials that i would expect to be given by a coach if i were the one with the whistle. granted not all of them deserve it, but i still show them the respect.”

You already said it yourself “I myself have gotten that way on more than one occasion this year, and have been flagged for it.”

one of the first things i tell the officials who actually have a pregame conference with me is that i just want my kids to have a fair shot at playing,

I bet this really gets things off to a good start. Sheesh!

“and most after hearing that show me, as a coach, a little more respect. we are all (both coaches and officials) out there to teach the game to the players, and should think of that first and foremost.”

That’s because you already told them you’ll be watching to make sure they don’t cheat your team.

Coach, please take the time to reread my comments to your comments. Officials are people to. The reason we get into officiating, whatever the sport, is because we love the game and we want to support the kids. Then we find out that we can get paid too. If you knew how much money some of us spend on uniforms and equipment plus going to camps to get better, you’d rethink the comments about we do this for the money. I will agree that there probably are a few of them but I have not run across them yet.

first off, i am an official too and i know what we have to go through both on and off the field to be succesful.

yes there were 3 seconds left, i am positive in that. the official said he would not stop the clock because he wanted to go home. i tried to talk to him about it after the game, and he refused to answer any of my questions. i wasnt beligerant about it, or irrate, just confused and would have liked to have an explanation as to why he let it run down.

as a coach, i have to answer to the parents when they question things like that. alot of parents were irrate at this and even more so when i told them he would not answer me as to why. they all wrote letters to the league and head official about this and many other instances in our game and others pertaining to this official.

you are taking my comment about some officials making coaches act the way they do out of context. i agree, we are responsible for out actions, both coaches and officials. and it is both of us that have to teach the kids sportsmanship, but when refs are yelling at players telling them they wont call penalties and belittling them, then i have a problem and try to find out what is going on and how i can help to fix the situation before it escalates. as an official i always try to communicate with the coaches if they have a question, and i will explain why i did something. they dont always like or agree with the answer, but if it is a judgement call then they have no argument and i make it clear to them that they cant question my judgement. if it is an interpretation that is different.

yes i get irrate, as a coach you would to, it is human nature, and things happen in the heat of the moment. but i have learned when i need to just walk away and let it be. or i will talk to another official and see if he can get something for me to understand so a situation doesnt arrise.

crossing the line...

again, it is human nature in competition to get to that line whether you are an official or not.

getting a fair shot at playing..
if you were to see the league we play in, then you would understand that statement was not meant towards the officials in a negative way. some of the opposing coaches are there to get that undefeated season, or to beat the weak teams by big numbers. case in point, in our second game of the season we lost 40-0. the opposing coach threw passes, and pulled out every trick play in his book in the last 2 minutes of the game. one of the officials finaly came over and told me that they would not let them get in the endzone again (after asking the other coach why he wants to embarrass anyone like that). is that right for an official to do? no, but most officials dont like to see any youth sport get so lopsided that one team walks off the field with no desire or love for the sport. after that game all the officials made it a point to come over and congradulate my team for a great game, and really made the kids feel positive about it. and i appreciated that.

you can take my comments for what you want, but they are not meant to bash any of the officials out there in the way that you are taking it. yes i have a problem with this one official, but he in my opinion is a differnt story.

Wake up coaches!!!

A few years ago I was on Court TV with Judge Catherine Crier where I equated officials with judges and asked, "do you hit the judge if you don't like the decision." Catherine replied, "I've had to duck a few times."

Officials represent authority. The decisions they make are the final word. The decisions are based upon judgement, hopefully, solid judgement, like them are not.

So many coaches play a game where they try to influence that judgement and too often weaker officials will succumb to the game.

The line should be the first step toward disrespect. Show ANY disrespect and you are gone. To the bus, period.

But officials let coaches walk the thin gray line and many coaches fall onto the wrong side. Then it is time to blame the officials.

Just last week I ended a youth game when the second coach I ejected refused to leave. All game long these coaches lived on the sideline making it diffuclt to cover plays on that sideline. Needless to say has the reality of the fact they were losing set in the more obnoxious they became until they fell well across the line.

Is this the type of behavior any coach wants to demonstrate to these youngsters? Shouldn't you accept the calls of the officials without dispute? Shouldn't you accept the loss as something you have control over and not take your anger out on the officials?

Offcials should expect total respect from coaches and in turn they should totally respect the coaches. No official ever appears in the scoring column. There may be "bad" calls but some of the play calls coaches make are bad but you don't see referee berating coaches for those calls.

Bottom line, coaches we expect nothing more or nothing less than you to act like gentlemen and show your players good sportsmanship regardless of the score.

[Edited by Ed Hickland on Nov 18th, 2005 at 03:14 PM]

I am a basketball referee. I have done all levels from youth league to high school. I have been threatened to the point of calling the police three times in fifteen years. Every single one of them were in youth league games! Some of these parents are complete idiots and deserve no respect from me. I do it because I like kids....period. I like to see the young kids have fun and develop their skills. After one particularly bad parent game, I was about ready to quit for good (I think it was my second year of officiating),,,when this 12 yr old boy came up to me and said he wanted to apologize for the actions of his dad and he thought we called a good game. This put it in perspective for me.

I also officiate basketball and it seems that (to put it blunt) the younger the players, the dumber the parents. Most of the parents are great and they appreciate what we're doing out there. It's those few idiots that spoil it for everyone. Last January, I had a parent removed from the gym for dropping F-bombs during a Saturday morning 8th grade game. He started to walk on the floor when game management told him it's time to go and I thought....here we go. However he walked out and every single parent in the gym stood and clapped. They said this guy acts similar every single game and I was the first to do something about it. Also had several Dads who said they were ready to tackle him if he came any closer.