In a 5-man crew, who counts (1) A players?; (2) B players?

referee and umpire count offense.
backjudge and linesman count defense.

Based on the NFHS Handbook 2004-05:
The R and U count the A Players [pages 60 & 61]; and,
LM, LJ and BJ count the B Players [pages 62 & 64].


Correction
You're right mcrowder, my oops, I read the book and it said Linesman, so I just did a brain cramp it is L, LJ and BJ for counting the B players

[Edited by golfdesigner on Oct 12th, 2005 at 03:59 PM]

Pardon my Fed ignorance... but who is the LM? Here, we have R, U, LJ, BJ, HL.

LM is the Linesman which is the same as the Headlinesman.

In the books we have R (Referee), U (Umpire), L (Linesman), LJ (Line Judge), and BJ (Back Judge).

The state calls them R, U, L, J, and B.

And to count them extremely quickly, count 4-4-3 as they break the huddle. I can do this before they ever get close to the LOS.

This works great in the middle of the field (R, U, or B). What about when on the wing counting B? It's damn near impossible until the huddle breaks and they've dispersed a bit.

4 man crew, to count B as the LJ is tough. Get your count, and then keep track of subs going in and out and you do not need to everytime.

Gotcha.

Depending on how they lineup, I'll either count 3-3-3-2, or 5-2-2-2 (convenient for teams that go with 5 linemen in the middle, 2 wings on each side, and 2 in the backfield (QB/HB).

The only problem with that mcrowder is that you are not getting your count until they get to the LOS. That causes many problems. If you count 12 the 1st time, you do not have time to count again, you cannot start focusing on the QB and backs for movement, and you cannot confirm the 11 count early enough with your U. My U and I have our count done and confirmed before they get to the LOS, let alone setting up so we can focus on the other things. 4-4-3 is very quick and works very well, no matter if they break the huddle and scatter, break and stay kind of in lines, or don't huddle at all.

I never got past Trig. in HS, so I do 3-3-3-2. (I hope that adds up to 11.)

R and U count A. When at R, I'll count B while waiting for A to break huddle. Use 3-3-3-2. Can do it in a couple of seconds. I alway keep aware of subs coming in so I usually know how many are in the huddle before it breaks, but still get a count. I count them 2 times, at least. If I get > 11, I'll count again to be sure before flagging for illegal sub.


BJ and LJ are primary for counting B. HL will count when chain duty allows. It really depends on how good your chain crew is. More important to keep the chains straight than to conduct a 3rd count of B.

I have always used the 3-3-3-2 because when I did 8-man games it just changed to 3-3-2. When players are hiding behind each other it might take as much as three seconds to count them that way once you are used to it. And when they are separated more you can get them counted in about one second.

I have been on the wing this season for varsity games and I agree that it can be very difficult for a wing to count B. But once I have gotten more used to the rest of the presnap routine I have been able to start getting B counted as well and confirming it with BJ.

Speaking of pre-snap routine, I'd like to hear what everyone does pre-snap. Of course it depends on position, and since I've worked mostly HL or LJ my career, it is what I have down best. But I'd love to hear about others' positions.

When the previous down ends, I do:
1) Confirm the down with the other wing and R.

If HL...
2) a) If a new series, set the chains (after confirmation from R)
b) Otherwise, erify the down on the box (I let guy set the box)

3) Count B
4) Look at R and U to verify 11. Then check there are 4 in the backfield. Punch back if outside guy is off.
5) Watch the line for FS or encroachment
6) Spit out the whistle on the snap

Of course 3 can be difficult if HL and things are going fast (i.e. hurry-up offense). And for 4, if there are less than four in the backfield, extra checks are going through my mind (i.e. a covered receiver); more than 4 looking for an illegal formation. But overall I go through this progression every down.

Comments? Routines for R, U, and BJ?

Something that I've been doing more this year is paying closer attention to substitutes. If no one enters the field, and the previous play you had 11, you know you've got 11. Now, that doesn't mean that you don't count. At that point I start focusing on other things, distance for first down, sideline control, getting a new ball (if needed) and so on and so forth.

The key here is communication between each position. I'm a LJ and we got a new BJ this year. His communication and attention has made a huge difference this year in the overall performance of our crew. It is amazing the difference one person makes.

I seldomnly check to see if A has 11. The only time I look there is when the formation is fishy. For instance the double punch-back from both wings, only 6 on the line, stuff like that.

I do a bunch of two-man, and I've gotten good at counting very quickly. Sometimes it's hard because of hidden players, but as I'm usually the linesman in a two-man situation and counting B, B is usually lined up before A breaks the huddle, so you have a little easier time.

If I get 10 or 12, I count again to be sure. If I get 10 again, I figure it's 10, but if I get 12 again, I go one more time, veryquickly because I'm usually figuring I just counted wrong.

Also, count helmets. They're usually at different levels because players are different heights. Much easier.

As mentioned, as L, I will count backs if I see my partner punch back to make sure we only have one back behind the quarterback.

SoCal counting
 

In Southern California, the R counts offense, U and BJ count defense, and flanks count the teams on their sideline. (As a U, I HATE:mad: counting defense, especially when the offense is in hurry up!!!)

The U should be facing A; 1) To get the signal from the R, 2) To verify that A has 5 linemen numbered 50 thru 79, 3) To count A.
The count of B is the responsibility of the BJ and the sideline officials.
I have never understood why any U would face the wrong direction and in effect not be able to perform his pre-snap duties.

Canadian Mechanics
 

CANADIAN MECHANICS:

• 3-man Crew
  • Team A: R
  • Team B: U
  • Home: none specific
  • Visitors: none specific
  • None: HL
• 4-man Crew
  • Team A: R
  • Team B: U
  • Home: HL
  • Visitors: LJ
  • None: none
• 5-man Crew
  • Team A: R
  • Team B: U, BU
  • Home: HL
  • Visitors: LJ
  • None: none
• 6-man Crew
  • Team A: R, U
  • Team B: BU, BJ
  • Home: HL
  • Visitors: LJ
  • None: none specific
• 7-man Crew
  • Team A: R, U
  • Team B: FJ, SJ, BJ
  • Home: none specific
  • Visitors: none specific
  • None: HL, LJ

JugglingReferee, I sure hope you copied and pasted that and did not have to type it in like that. ;)

As per our mechanics book, the U counts B. I know--I should be facing A and doing my presnap routine, but for some reason or another, I have to count B.

There was lots of C&P'ing! :) I'm just as lazy as anyone else. :D

I was having trouble focusing on my pre-snap progression so, just a couple of weeks ago, I came up with this: 11-11-4. By this I mean (1) count 11 B players, (2) check R/U signal that they have 11 A players, (3) count 4 backs (As A is lining up and we determine who's on or off). Then I focus on the LOS (I'm the LJ). Not sure if this would work for anyone else but has helped me to focus on my duties between downs...

I, too, am interested in what others do. I'm going to have to try 4-4-3. I've been going 2-2-2-2-2-1, and it's always been tough. I'm a math teacher; I should be able to count better!!!!!

3-3-3-2 has always worked well for me. Another way is to see what formation they are using and use that. A 4-3 defense will have 4 linemen, 3 linebackers, and 4 defensive backs. If they are spread out that is easy to count very quickly. You must start trying to get a count as quickly as possible, even before the RFP. It can also be made easier if you are on the sideline of the defensive team. If the play does not approach your sideline and no one goes on or off the field then you will have the same number as played the last play. Count B quickly so that you can then move to count your A requirements as soon as they reach the line.

Never fails though, the whole game you spend counting players, and then the one time you let it go, sure as heck there's an extra player somewhere. Happened last Friday night, fortunately our BJ was paying attention.