Another roughing the kicker situation

[eventnyc]

Scrimmage kick on 4th down (punt):

Team R player (unblocked) contacts the potential kicker as he releases the ball and BEFORE it is kicked. Two scenarios:

1) The kicker never makes contact with the ball and it squirts away. Contact is severe or not severe. My take: Fumble.

2) The kicker makes contact with the ball. Ruling?

By rule, is the punter only afforded protection if he kicks the ball?

Please don't answer this post if you are going to say that you would have to see the play. We'll assume if the contact is severe it is roughing and if not - running into.

[MJT]

Originally posted by eventnyc
Scrimmage kick on 4th down (punt):

Team R player (unblocked) contacts the potential kicker as he releases the ball and BEFORE it is kicked. Two scenarios:

1) The kicker never makes contact with the ball and it squirts away. Contact is severe or not severe. My take: Fumble.

2) The kicker makes contact with the ball. Ruling?

By rule, is the punter only afforded protection if he kicks the ball?

Please don't answer this post if you are going to say that you would have to see the play. We'll assume if the contact is severe it is roughing and if not - running into.

1) Unless you think it is a PF, no foul as he is not a kicker til he kicks it.

2) You have RTK if he does not at least partially block the ball and was not blocked into the kicker.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by MJT
1) Unless you think it is a PF, no foul as he is not a kicker til he kicks it.

I've never seen a case play or website interp for this play but I think you're splitting hairs. The rule states, "A kicker is any player who legally punts, drop kicks or place kicks." It does not say "who HAS legally punted,..." This is a kicker who is in the process of punting the ball and is at his most vulnerable. The definition of a punt says, "A punt is a legal kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks it before it has touched the ground." Dropping the ball is part of punting the ball.

Unless the defender can get to him while he's still a runner, I believe the rule requires him to go for the block and not the kicker. If it's reasonable to assume a kick will be made and contact is avoidable, he has to avoid him. I've got a flag.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 9th, 2005 at 09:13 PM]

[Forksref]

Flag. If he is in the motion that precedes the kick then he is vulnerable and not able to protect himself. Safety issue here. If he can avoid the blocker and protect himself, no flag.

[MJT]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I've never seen a case play or website interp for this play but I think you're splitting hairs. The rule states, "A kicker is any player who legally punts, drop kicks or place kicks." It does not say "who HAS legally punted,..." This is a kicker who is in the process of punting the ball and is at his most vulnerable. The definition of a punt says, "A punt is a legal kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks it before it has touched the ground." Dropping the ball is part of punting the ball.

Unless the defender can get to him while he's still a runner, I believe the rule requires him to go for the block and not the kicker. If it's reasonable to assume a kick will be made and contact is avoidable, he has to avoid him. I've got a flag.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 9th, 2005 at 09:13 PM]

Definitions

"kicker is any player who legally punts...he continues to be a kicker until he has had a resonable opportunity to regain his balance."

"passer is a player who throws a forward pass. He continues to be a passer until the pass ends or until he moves to participate in the play."

"runnner is a player in possession of a live ball"

A kicker is NOT a player in position to receive a snap more than 7 yards back, or someone who is preparing to kick, he is a back (runner) until he kicks it.

Definitions show that a passer and kicker are very similar in their definitions and you are not going to call roughing the passer if they smack the QB before he passes, even if he is starting his motion, so why would you call roughing the kicker before he kicks it?

This has been discussed before and most agree that he is a runner until he kicks the ball, so if you get to him before he kicks it, you cannot have RTK. You could only have a PF if you felt it was that for a regular runner.

[BktBallRef]

Apples and oranges.

A passer is a runner until he passes the ball. Defenders are chasing him, trying to tackle him before he passes.

A punter in position to receive a snap is not a runner, nor is he as he releases the ball to kick it. That's why the defense is not allowed to make contact unless it's "unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made." HELLO? Ring a bell?

BTW, I haven't seen these discussions that you speak. Right now, it's 2 for a flag, 1 against. You're losing.

[MJT]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Apples and oranges.

A passer is a runner until he passes the ball. Defenders are chasing him, trying to tackle him before he passes.

A punter in position to receive a snap is not a runner, nor is he as he releases the ball to kick it. That's why the defense is not allowed to make contact unless it's "unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made." HELLO? Ring a bell?

BTW, I haven't seen these discussions that you speak. Right now, it's 2 for a flag, 1 against. You're losing.

The "not reasonably certain that a kick will be made" is a comment to let the defense "off the hook" (no RTK) if he is running and at the last minute kicks it. That shows that even though he became a "kicker" he will not be awarded the protection a normal "kicker" receives. And yes, I know of the statement.

So you are going to call RTK if he is holding the ball out in front of him preparing to kick it and gets creamed by a defender who never got blocked???? What is the defender supposed to do, stop in front of him and stick his arms out to block it when he does kick it. Heck no, he is going to hit him before he kicks it and there should be no flag unless it would be of the PF nature.

I'll start a new post to point others to this one to make sure we get some more good input.

[TXMike]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Apples and oranges.

A passer is a runner until he passes the ball. Defenders are chasing him, trying to tackle him before he passes.

A punter in position to receive a snap is not a runner, nor is he as he releases the ball to kick it. That's why the defense is not allowed to make contact unless it's "unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made." HELLO? Ring a bell?

BTW, I haven't seen these discussions that you speak. Right now, it's 2 for a flag, 1 against. You're losing.

NCAA He is not a kicker until he kicks. Once he has possession of the ball, he is a runner, no matter what he is trying to do. He stays that until he kicks. If he is contacted after he drops ball for the kick but before he kicks, it is not RTK. Make it 2 -2 and since 1 is a roundball R, that one should only count for 1/2 vote.

[waltjp]

No flag. 3-2

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by MJT
The "not reasonably certain that a kick will be made" is a comment to let the defense "off the hook" (no RTK) if he is running and at the last minute kicks it. That shows that even though he became a "kicker" he will not be awarded the protection a normal "kicker" receives. And yes, I know of the statement.

Really? Where does it say that in the rule book. "THis article only applies if he is running with the ball."


So you are going to call RTK if he is holding the ball out in front of him preparing to kick it and gets creamed by a defender who never got blocked???? [/B][/QUOTE]

No, I've already made the statement that if he's holding the ball, he can be tackled like any other player. BUt once he's punting the ball, which by definition inclides the release, he's provided protection.

You're splitting hairs. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Rich]

Originally posted by MJT

The "not reasonably certain that a kick will be made" is a comment to let the defense "off the hook" (no RTK) if he is running and at the last minute kicks it. That shows that even though he became a "kicker" he will not be awarded the protection a normal "kicker" receives. And yes, I know of the statement.

So you are going to call RTK if he is holding the ball out in front of him preparing to kick it and gets creamed by a defender who never got blocked???? What is the defender supposed to do, stop in front of him and stick his arms out to block it when he does kick it. Heck no, he is going to hit him before he kicks it and there should be no flag unless it would be of the PF nature.

I'll start a new post to point others to this one to make sure we get some more good input.

That provision (not reasonably certain a kick will be made) causes us a lot of trouble at times. I had a game earlier this season where a bad snap forced the punter to move three steps to his left to get the snap, but he immediately set up and punted the ball and then was run into by a defensive player. Flag by me, B's coach goes nuts because "he was running with the ball," blah, blah, blah.

For me, you have to be reasonable to both teams -- and the book gives you ample wiggle room so that when something strange happens it becomes purely a judgement call.

On the original play, I have nothing on both plays. Vulnerable or not, the punter did not get the kick off. If the kick was blocked, would we worry about contact and how vulnerable the kicker was? This kick never even got off -- this is just a good defensive play and poor line play by the kicking team.

[mcrowder]

No flag. The player is simply a runner until he contacts the ball. I agree that he's defenseless and understand the DESIRE by you guys to protect him. But if FED wants it called that way they need to write the rule that way. Current rules, as written, the defender can attempt to prevent the punt from occurring by tackling the ballcarrier. To have a kicker, it requires a KICK.

[golfnref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Really? Where does it say that in the rule book. "THis article only applies if he is running with the ball."


So you are going to call RTK if he is holding the ball out in front of him preparing to kick it and gets creamed by a defender who never got blocked????

No, I've already made the statement that if he's holding the ball, he can be tackled like any other player. BUt once he's punting the ball, which by definition inclides the release, he's provided protection.

You're splitting hairs. We'll just have to agree to disagree. [/B][/QUOTE]
Add my vote to no foul before the ball is kicked. Roughing the kicker is just that . The player cannot be a kicker until foot hits the ball. I respectfully disagree with BBR's assumption that a kick includes the release.

[Warrenkicker]

An A player is lineman or a back until he gets the ball. Once he has the ball he is a runner. Once he throws a pass he is a passer. Once he kicks the ball he is a kicker.

[l3will]

No flag... he is not a kicker until he kicks the ball.

The other situation I hate is the "kicker" doing his ballerina act and actually sticking his leg into an R who would have otherwise missed him. Also, those kickers who feel a breeze and fall down... acting.