Again, here is a call that decieded the game!



K-6 R-7

20 seconds on the clock and running.

K 4-10 @50. K punts the ball. R muffs the kick inside the 5 yardline. K recovers on the goal line (clock ran out). Ruling:

This maybe simple call for most of us but the crew that had this game awarded a TD to K and they won the game. This is why it is so important that the whole crew understands the rules not just the referee!

out of 5 guys no one knew the rule? maybe they should never get another game, thats horrible.

You should be posting this to their assignors door and their chapter officers. Something is lacking in their training or rules review sessions.

After the officials are shown the error of their ways, somebody needs to talk to the coach and/or kids.

Was this the final play of the game? if so, what was R doing anywhere NEAR the kick? And what was K doing kicking the ball with 20 seconds left to go if they needed the score?

Sounds like EVERYONE screwed up on this play.

OK, I'll bite, what's the correct call?

REPLY: Note that the play said that the kick was lying on R's goal line when K recovered meaning that it broke the plane of R's goal. What is it when a legal kick breaks the plane of R's goal line?

I went back and re-read the post and I don't see where it says that the ball was lying on the goal line. If it was, then I see your point, Touchback. But, if in the mad scramble for the ball, the guy that ended up with it was laying on the goalline with it, then the TD is correct. In my mind, the original post isn't all that clear, but the fact that it was posted in such a way as to indicate the crew botched it, I see your point.

By NCAA the correct call is TD. But after watching this site for some time I know it's a toucback for NF rules no matter if the ball is first touched by team R (B) or not.

K recovers on the goalline is the original post. Touchback when the ball breaks the plane of the goalline. If K recovers in the field of play they can't advance so there's no way K can score.

REPLY: We're going to turn you into a Federation official yet, Jason!

W & S...if K actually did recover the ball on R's goal line, then it HAD to break the plan of R's goal prior to recovery, hence a TB. If he recovered it prior to the kick penetrating R's goal, then it would be dead there since K cannot advance a kick and any advance into R's end zone would be with a dead ball. There's no way he could ever score a TD on the play as tpaul laid it out. In either case the game would be over. I don't understand what scenario you could envision where K could score a TD.

this must of been the last play of the half, there is no way they would be punting the ball down 7-6 with only 20 seconds remaing from midfield. this just does not make sense.

I'm not disagreeing with what you all are saying. I'm just rather new at football and trying to understand the ruling. Thanks for filling me in.

yankeesfan,
It was the end of the game. You're right. It looks as though they gave up and the game was over!


To everybody else.....
you're right something needs to be done. I am looking to get newspaper article on the game story. This action did not go un-noticed!

Now now. These things happen. If R had scored more earlier in the game, they wouldn't have been in this position to begin with. You can't blame the loss on the officiating crew. Where'd this game happen anyhow?

Blame the officials? They gave A TD when it should have been a TB for B game over...The officals decieded the game and did it incorrectly!

I don't want to name locations because there are a lot of good officials in the area and I wouldn't want to bring the rest down because of the botch job of 5!

THe officials did not decide the game. The lack of scoring during the first 47 minutes did.

THe officials did not decide the game. The lack of scoring during the first 47 minutes did. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes they did...they awarded a TD when they shouldn't have. I understand what you are are saying if A or B was winning 55-0 then this play wouldn't have matter but either way it's still wrong...

Our crew screwed this up last year. I was BJ and ruled TD on a muffed punt recovered in the EZ. It was the first punt of the game from the first series of the game. I was so hoping that that team that it went against would either win or lose by 17 or more. Unfortunately they lost by 7, ending their ~32 game regular season winning streak. I think I caused the team to lose and felt (and still feel) horrible, but I promise you I will never mess that call up again.

PS: We figured it out before half time, our Umpire asked a question on the field but asked it to late otherwise we would have been able to correct it.

[Edited by w_sohl on Oct 4th, 2005 at 11:28 AM]

A proper pre-game would never allow this to happen. Of course you need a competent White Hat to conduct a good pre-game and it sounds like you had neither.

tpaul...where you at this game? Can you define the 'muff'?

If R catches/possesses the kick inside his 5 and his momentum carries him into the endzone where he fumbles the ball and K recovers...it is a touchdown.

This is the only scenario where I can see a TD for K and it possibly be incorrectly described as a muff.

Not to say anything bad about you and yes you made a mistake but what about the other 4 guys on your crew?

I know as a referee I would have been down there and asked you, "How can K score on this play?"

I agree about the proper pregame but also 4 other guys let this play happen, how can you do that?

I was at the game watching, I was NOT on the field or working the game I was a spectator!!! duha, I know what a muff is. I knew the call was wrong but I couldn't change it or have anything to do with it. The newspapers got a hold of this and that crew is under fire! And they should be...

If my crew made this call somehow. I know I would have corrected it right away. I have a solid BJ and I run him through these things in the pregame.

You seem to care too much about this mistake, to be honest. It's something for this crew to learn from, but it's nothing to hang them over.

Oh, and this wouldn't have happened had R simply caught the punt :)

no, I posted it so guys can think about this play in hopes that they won't screw it up. I hope the crew on the game have learned from it but....

Yep all R had to do was catch it.

Better yet, R should have stayed away from it completely!

You are right, the WH should have known this. However the BJ is more to blame. He is the one that is totally responsable for making this call and there is zero excuse for him not know that rule. To me a BJ should know the kicking game, especially scrimmage kicks, like the back of his hand. I do not care how well he may call PI's or relay a football or whatever. If he does not know how to take care of punts then he has no business being a BJ.

I think this example is great for the knowledge base of everyone on this board. I think the reason tpaul seems to "care too much" is that he is familiar with the play and relaying the reaction of the community/paper to the botched call. He is not trying to hang these guys out to dry.

This is a bad call on behalf of all 5 officials. This is a scenario where the officials lost the game for the other team. Yes, they could've scored more points, or left the ball alone, or caught the punt, but one of the 5 guys working the game should've had the rules knowledge to get this right.

I agree, this play happened in my area too. I have decided I'm now going to have a policy where if we have a TD on a kick play, I'm going to ask the calling official how the TD was scored. I may be a LJ but I'm going to make sure we get it right. I suggest any Rs do the same thing, it may look bad to change it from a TD to a TB but its our job to get it right - do what it takes.

thanks guys...

Even, better, R should have a scored a few more TDs earlier in the game.

THIS IS NOT IN OUR CONTROL!! But correcting the mistake, or, even better, knowing the rules and not calling it a TD in the first place, is in our control. It is our resonsibility to know the rules, use proper mechanics, and control the game- not put points on the board erroneously. That is what these officials did.

I'm struggling to find the difficulty in understanding that point.

I agree with grantsrc, the officials blew it. My comment was not meant to let the officials off the hook. They should have known the rules. That is why this forum is beneficial.

It is better to get things straightened out via this forum than by misapplying a rule in a real game.

The best way to use this forum, I think, is to really read the rule and case book when you find yourself disagreeing with something that you think is wrong.

In my case, it straightened out a misunderstanding I had about forward handing that I think I have had for over 30 years. In my case, I was fortunate enough to NOT have that particular situation occur in any game.

REPLY: Most of the time I cringe when I hear someone say, "The officials cost us the game." Typically, the reason is not that simple. But here, it's clear: If the officials had properly ruled, R would have won the game. Because of their error, K won the game. I have never seen such a perfect example of an official's error determining the outcome of a game. Whether R should (could?) have scored more points earlier is immaterial. Without the error, R wins; with the error, K wins.

It's a shame that it came down to that, but hopefully all who have read this post will never make that kind of mistake. Thanks tpaul for bringing it to our collective attention.

I agree Bob M. Unfortunately I can see the same decision being made by a few crews around here. It shouldn't EVER happen, but I bet it would.

As stated by cowboyfan1 the BJ should be the "expert" in the scrimmage kick area, but IMO the R should be the overseer of all knowledge. I guess really every crew needs at least one "rule man" not neccessarily the R.

I'm guess I'm getting a little tired of hearing what R should have done (stay away from the punt, score more earlier, etc.) to win the game. Yes, 47 some odd minutes (or whatever it was) of game was played and R could have "done more." And yes, it is wrong for officials who are not there to rake that crew "over the coals" for that call.

That having been said, there is not a good excuse for missing this call (even if the crew was 100% correct the rest of the game). I have a lot of trouble saying the officiating crew decided the outcome of a game, but you can't let some mistakes by one team justify mistakes on the officials part. I know it's unfair that perfection is expected, and if this call happened in the second quarter of what ended up a 42-0 game, we don't hear about it, but none of that is a good reason to say "oh well" about an incorrect call that the rest of the crew should have questioned.

I agree, the BJ should be all over this and should know the kicking game. Wierd stuff can happen, especially on kicks, we need to know when to blow the whistle and when not to, when to throw the flag and when not to and when to throw the beanbag and when not it. Murphy's law applies.

I can't totally blame this on the R, if I was the R I would have asked how they scored. The R should not be looking downfield so he wouldn't have seen the play but...

I really would like to know what the heck the HL and especially the LJ were doing. They should be on this too. At what point they could have a conference to determine the correct call.