From another forum:

"This past week, I had a Varsity game in the State of Florida (Federation rules). On fourth and 10 with two and a half minutes left in the fourth quarter K kick the ball and it touched beyond the expanded neutral zone and muffed by R and recovered by K. The linesman had a live ball foul illegal procedure on the play, so R elects to raplay the down with K penalized 5 yards.

Here is what Happened,a nd I am sure we got it wrong, but my white cap is bull headed about having the play right. He elected to start the clock on the ready for play. I stopped the clock and ran to the ref and questioned him about starting on the ready, I thought it should start on the snap, because the result of the preceding play dictated a starting on the snap. He negated my question and said it should start on the ready. I then brought to his attention the first down clock rule.... if on first down of a new series the A team commits a foul and the down is replayed... the clock runs as governed by the flagged first down play. Still he is adament on starting on the ready."

When does the clock start, on the ready or on the snap?

The clock should start on the ready if the action which caused the down to end did not cause the clock to be stopped.

In the play mentioned here, I believe that this was not a change of possession, so the clock would have been started on the ready if there had been no penalty. Subsequently, after the penalty was enforced, I believe the clock should still begin on the ready.

Start clock on RFP

Thanks. I agree but the guys on the other forum did not agree with me. No new series is awarded in this play.

What? Was it a coach's forum. ;)

RFP as no new series was awarded.

Nope. An football officials forum.

I believe it should start on the snap. If a foul hadn't occurred it would have been a start of a new series following a legal scrimmage kick. I realize it didn't happen that way, but technically, the "result of the play" was just that even though no new series was awarded due to the foul.

On the RFP. Read 3-4-2, 3, 4.

Gentlemen, do NOT get to thinking about "change of possession". Fed timing rules do not have a change of possession (apparent or actual) section as NCAA does. You may have several changes of possession during a down and the clock will start on the RFP, or the snap, depending on why the down ended, whether there was a legal kick during the down, whether there was an IW (that is not ignored), did the ball go OB, in the EZ, etc.
But change of possession is not mentioned in the NF timing rules.

Sorry but you're misreading the rule.

The rule says "The clock shall start with the snap if the clock was stopped because either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick." It doesn't say the clock starts on the ready if it was stopped to award a team a new series. It starts on the snap if you ACTALLY AWARD THE NEW SERIES. Otherwise, the end of the play dictates when the clock is started. Since this was a play that end with a run inbounds, and neither team is awarded a new series, the clock starts on the ready.

I guess see your point, BBR. I'm not being stubborn or even disagree with you. For some reason it simply didn't sound right going on the RFP.

No problem. The other folks were making the same mistake. ;)

It's odd but in this sitch, what happens on the next play does play a part in when you start the clock.

Canadian Ruling
 

On the snap, becuase we had a penalty application after the 3 minute warning. In the odd event that with 2.5 minutes left, and the 3mw has not yet been given, start on the ready.

Good comment. It sent me back, to the rule book. Now I think I need further clarification on why it does not start on the snap.

In this scenario above, if there had been no penalty, I believe it states the clock would start with the snap (Rule 3, Art 3) if either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick (item c). Since that is the "status" of the clock had there been no penalty, shouldn't that also be the "status" of the clock after enforcement of the penalty.

I'm still new and don't know if I'm experienced enough to argue yet. I'm just trying to understand. :)

Let me reword the previous item and create "Scenario B" just for clarification: On <s>fourth and 10</s> <i>third and 2</i> with two and a half minutes left in the fourth quarter<i>, the clock is running and A throws an incomplete pass.</i> The linesman had a live ball foul illegal procedure on the play, so B elects to replay the down with A penalized 5 yards.

In this scenario B, wouldn't the clock start on the snap because that was the "status" of the clock had there been no penalty? I know the original scenario had the "award of a new series" wiped off with the penalty, but didn't Scenario B also have the incomplete pass wiped off with the penalty? Can anyone provide additional rule references I might be missing?

Someone kindly explain what an "illegal procedure" foul is.

It makes absolutely no difference what would have happened if there had no been a penalty. The fact is that there is a penalty. Neither team is awarded a new series, 4th down is replayed. Therefore, the clock starts on the ready.

As for the rule, there's only one rule that you need. Read it and ask yourself if any of these issues applies.

3-4-3
The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:

a. The ball goes out of bounds. No
b. B is awarded a new series. No
c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick. No
d. The ball becomes dead behind the goal line. No
e. A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete. No
f. A request for a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted. No
g. A period ends. No
h. A team attempts to consume time illegally. No
i. The penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted. No

A new series is NOT awarded. Clock starts on the ready.



[Edited by BktBallRef on Sep 25th, 2005 at 11:20 AM]

I think it is starting to click and just want to make sure.

In the original scenario, a new series could have only been awarded after the play was completed, if all the conditions for a new series were met. Since there was a penalty during the play, the new series was not award <u><i>after</i></u> the play ended. This is why it still starts on the ready.

In my scenario "B", there was an incomplete pass <u><i>during</i></u> the live ball, therefore in scenario B the clock would properly start on the snap.

Correct?

5-1-2 A new series of downs is awarded:
(a) After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead ball foul by B.
(b) After a fourth down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down.

So no, a first down is not awarded until after the penalty is considered and unless one of the other things that stop the clock that were listed above occur to cause the ball to become dead, the clock starts on the ready in this situation.

You own it!

BktBallRef, I have to ask. What was a North Carolina official doing calling a varisity HS game in Florida? I am a Georgia official who called varsity HS games in Florida several years ago. There was one school in a county that borders Georgia that was displeased with the officiating association in Florida and elected to us our association out of Georgia. There are some minor differences between Georgia and Florida in the mechanics of the game administration and overtime procedures. All games we called used Georgia mechanics and overtime procedures. Georgia used to use an overtime procedure that would take a Philadelphia lawyer to explain. They finally went to a modified NCAA overtime procedure starting at the 15 instead of the 25 two years ago.

Read the first three words in the opening post-

"From another forum:"

This was my game. We started it on the ready. I think it should have started it on the snap. I brought that to my referees attention, and he said no.

The question is what stopped the clock. Two things did. The first one is, Awarding of a new series for A after a legal kick, and of course the penalty.

The officials who start the clock on the ready, usually state that if the ball went OOB, and B accepts the penaly, they would start the clock on the snap.

Personally, I don't see the difference between the stopping the clock because it went out of bounds, and stopping the clock because you awarding a new series after a legal kick.

Cbrockett

But you don't award a new series to A until after considering the penalty, so you don't stop the clock to award A a new series, you have stopped the clock to administer the penalty. Therefore, no team has been awarded a first down after a legal kick, because you never get to the awarding because you administer the penalty first.

Easy - the difference is that you did not award a new series.

Simplify the situation. 4th and 8. Runner runs 5 yards , but there's a 5-yard foul on the defense. Clock stopped to administer the penalty (and for the apparent new series, just as in your sitch). After the penalty is enforced, it turns out there is NO new series (just as in your sitch). Clock on the snap or the RFP?

RFP, of course. Just like in your sitch.

[Edited by mcrowder on Sep 26th, 2005 at 10:29 AM]

Bad example McCrowder... in both situations the clock starts on the ready....

REPLY: Here's what seems to be confusing a lot of people. A <b>change of possession</b> during the down and the <b>awarding of a new series to B</b> are two distinct things.

Unless, you ultimately set up the stakes first and ten for B, you have <b><u><i>not</i></u></b> awarded B a new series.

The NCAA rule is different. There you will start on the snap if you stop the clock for an <u>apparent</u> new series for B even if a penalty during the down eventually negates the new series. but in Fed, you must actually award the new series.

This is where you're confused.

We aren't talking about STOPPING the clock. We're talkling about STARTING it.

Since you DO NOT award a new series to either team, the clock STARTS on the ready.

Had you awarded a new series it would START on the SNAP, but WE DID NOT AWARD A NEW SERIES.

It's that simple.

Really? Is this one of those crazy Fedlandia rules, or a mistake on the poster's part? You don't really start on the ready after a change of possession do you?

Bob, I don't believe that is correct. (And if it is, I have a bad habit to unlearn!)

4th and 1, defense stops the offense, but facemasks. Apparent new series for B, but as it turns out, just a 1st down for A after the penalty is walked off. Clock starts on the RFP, not the snap, even though you had an "apparent" new series for B.

Sorry about that BBR. I totally missed the first sentence.

Mcrowder better unlearn
 

from the approved rulings 2005 NCAA rules

3-2-5-III

Fourth and four. Team A's running play, which ends inbounds, gains (a)...(b) three yards. B1 is offside durning the play. Ruling (a)...(b) Team A's ball. First and 10 after accepting the penalty. The clock starts on the snap.

No problem.

Bob is corect. NCAA timing rules recognize the "apparent change of possession" Whenever you stop the clock for this situation, even if there is a foul enforced that negates the COP, you start on the snap.

Ya I made a mistake... I thought the reult of the play with and without the penalty resulted in a first down for A. You are correct the result of the play you describe results in a new series for B.

Sorry about my error.

Let me take some time to try to explain to those who are having some problem with this timing situation.
The first thing is that the timing rules are an integrated set of rules. Each one does not necessarily stand by itself.
To illustrate this let's take the following.
1. 4th & 6 at the K 43.
K kicks a scrimage kick to the B 20 where:
a. The ball becomes dead on the ground untouched by any player.
b. The ball is caught by B1 and run to the 25 where he runs OB.
c. The ball is caught by B1 who runs to the 25 and is tackled.
d. The ball is caught by B1 and run to the 25 where he fumbles the ball and the ball is recovered by A1 who is tackled immediately.

2. Same play but there is a 5 yard non-PSK foul on B.
Same situations a-d.

3. Same play but there is a 15 yard non-PSK foul on B.
Same situations a-d.

The first question to ask is why did we stop the clock?
In a, b, & c the clock is stopped because there was a change of team possession during the down. (3.5.7c)This is an OFICIAL'S TIME-OUT.
In b the clock is stopped first because the runner took the ball OB.(3.4.3a) This is action that ends the down ND stops the clock.
Now when do we start the clock after an official's T.O.? On the RFP. EXCEPT WHEN B IS AWARDED A NEW SERIES, OR EITHER TEAM IS AWARDED A NEW SERIES FOLLOWING A LEGAL KICK. In a,c,& d we award one of the teams a new series after a legal kick. Therefore we will start the clock on the snap.

Now let's take play 2 where we have the 5 yard penalty.
We still stop the clock in b because the ball went OB. But, in a, c, & d. the clock is stopped because the down ended after a foul. (3.4.4a) [This is also an official's T.O. 3.5.7j]. Note that the clock stoppage rules only talk about why & when the clock shall stop, not about when it will start again.
In a,b,&c K may take the penalty which would give them a 4th & 1 from the K 48. In d. they will undoubtably take the result of the play which will give them a 1st & 10 from the B25.
Whem will we start the clock for these situations?
In a & c we have no situations for which the clock was stopped that require the clock to be started on the snap. (ie: neither team was awarded was awarded a new series, the action that ended the down did not stop the clock, etc.) [Let's take a second to reiterate that a change of possession is NOT action that causes the clcok to stop!!! If it was all plays would become dead the instant that there was a change of possession and we know that this isn't so]
Therefore in a & c we will start on the RFP.
For b. The ball went OB causing the clock to stop before the official's T.O. to administer the foul, so by rule (3.4.3a) the clock starts on the snap. Note that this is also "action that cause the ball to become dead and also causes the clock to stop. Other such action is the ball becoming dead behind a goal line, a legal (or illegal) forward pass being incomplete)
In d. K will again take the result of the play, be awarded a new series and the clcok will start with the snap.

Now for the 15 yard penalty. In all the situations listed the clock will start on the snap. WHY? Because no matter what choices are made either K or R will be awarded a new series after a legal kick. (Or actually in the case of b. because the ball went OB. This still happened first)

The point of all this is so that you recognize that we stop the clcok for a variety of reasons. Some of them are official's T.O.s and cause the clock to start on the RFP (unless there are other rules that THEN kick in). Some of them, such as going OB, are reasons that stop the clock on their own BEFORE any other reasons. These will always cause the clock to stay stopped until the snap.

You must first determine why the clcok is stopped.(3.4.4 or 3.5.7)
Then determine if one of the reasons to keep it stopped (3.4.2 a1,2,3 or 3.4.3) applies.
If they don't you will start on the RFP.

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 26th, 2005 at 05:54 PM]

Jim S,
That was a pretty good explanation, I do however disagree with the above portion....in all D situations the clock will start with the snap as A will be awarded a new series after a legal kick.....

Can't wait to discuss this one in pregame tonight... and Thursday... and Friday... and Saturday... and next week. I am positive I'm not the only one doing this wrong.

Yep I screwed up. On the snap is what I meant to say.

I get a little passionate right now about the timing rules. I was in a state semi last year when we had a play where B intercepted, but didn't get it with clean hands. After the penalty gave A a new series my R says "We start on the snap." I tell him "No. We start on the ready." "You sure?" "Yep"
The reason I was so sure is that we had just spent a week on the boards discussing these types of plays.
The problem was that the two evaluators dinged me several points for being in error on the timing rules (They both kept quoting NCAA terms (apparent COP, etc. [one of them even wanted to say that a change of possession was action that also stopped the clock! I just had to ask "How do we manage to have runbacks if the COP stops the clock?"]
Of course I also lost a couple of points for being "acerbic" to the evaluators..... Just because I asked them to go back and read the FEDERATION rulebook!

I have never seen an official stop the clock after a legal kick and give the official's timeout signal.

The fact that you are missing; The clock stops in those situations to award a new series after a legal kick.

Start the clock on the snap.

Well now you're just being stubborn, and wrong. :(

You're convinced, so much so that you can't see the forest for the trees, and you're not even considering what anyone else has to say. That's stubborn, close minded and wrong.

WE ARE NOT AWARDING A NEW SERIES!!!!!!! Can't you get that through your head? If we were, it would start on the snap. BUT WE AREN'T!!

The clock starts on the ready.

I'm done.

CB, NOWHERE in the rulebook does it say to stop the clock to award a new series. It does say not to start it IF you award a new series. But that is not why we stop it.
The reasons to stop the clock are listed in 3.4.4 and a couple of others.

The rule you are quoting is 3.4.3b,c. But this rule only tells you when not to start the clock until the snap AFTER you have stopped it for one of the reasons in 3.4.4 (or elsewhere)
The last point is that the rule says don't start until the snap when a new series IS awarded. Not when you you might awarded one if something else hadn't happened. If you don't award a new series, that rule doesn't apply because the situation hasn't been met.
Note also that declaring a first down does not always keep the clock dead. It is always an officia's T.O. per 3.5.7b but only in the two circumstances in 3.4.3 do we keep the clock stopped.

BTW, under which rule do we stop the clock when the ball carrier takes the ball beyond the line-to-gain? And what is the reason given for doing so?

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 27th, 2005 at 11:34 AM]

First we need to know how/when a new series is awarded. Here is the pertinent rule.


3-1-2: A new series is awarded:

b. After a fourth down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down.

Then we need to look at the timing rule on when to START the clock.


3-4-2: The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped:

a. For an official’s time-out, other than when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

The question in the play is this. Was either team awarded a new series? The effect of R fouling and K deciding to replay the down means that niether team wasawarded a new series of downs (per rule). Thus, clock starts on the ready-for-play.

Thanks to all of you who have been persistent in all of this. I was thinking previously on the snap before this post but understand what you're all saying, and it makes sense.

So, thank you!

To all those who say start on the snap I agree.

Yes, Hell may be freezing over because my reply will be short and not my normal long dissertation.

The correct rule to apply to this situation is NF 3-4-2b3.

In laymans terms it say that if during a play in which a foul occurs the next play will start on the ready if the action which caused the down to end DID NOT also cause the clock to be stopped.

What caused the clock to stop in the situation?

The foul? NO...Fund III Dead Ball #2: no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

To award a new series. YES. Please note: whether or not a new series is actually awarded is not a factor in the decisionof when to start the clock on next play. In the Sit. the awarding of a new series was why the clock was actually stopped.

Therefore, since the action which caused the down to end DID cause the clock to be stopped the clock will next begin on the snap.

See also article in October issue of Referee Magazine on page 20-22. The Two Minute Drill by Rogers Redding.

[Edited by Daryl H. Long on Sep 28th, 2005 at 01:03 AM]

Daryl, I used to think this too, but here is why it isn't correct.

The action that killed the down did not also cause the clock to stop.

A down ends when the ball becomes dead so look at how the ball becomes dead.


Rule 4-2-2

The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:

a. When a runner goes out of bounds, is held so his forward progress is stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground.

EXCEPTION 1: The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position: Catches or recovers the snap while his knee(s) is on the ground and places the ball for a kick, or if he rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.

EXCEPTION 2: The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position: Rises and catches an errant snap and immediately returns his knee(s) to the ground and places the ball for a kick or again rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.

NOTE: The ball becomes dead if the place-kick holder muffs the snap or fumbles and recovers after his knees have been off the ground, and he then touches the ground with other than hand or foot while in possession of the ball.


b. When a live ball goes out of bounds.

c. When any forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete or is simultaneously caught by opposing players.

d. When any legal free kick or scrimmage kick:


1. Which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded scoring attempt, breaks the plane of R’s goal line.
2. Which is a scoring attempt, while in flight touches a K player in R’s end zone, or after breaking the plane of R’s goal line has apparently failed.

EXCEPTION If a scoring attempt kick touches an upright or crossbar or an R player in the end zone and caroms through the goal, the touching is ignored and the attempt is successful.

e. When any loose ball:
1. Is simultaneously caught or recovered by opposing players.
2. Is on the ground motionless and no player attempts to secure possession.
3. Touches, or is touched by, anything inbounds other than a player, substitute, replaced player, an official, the ground or authorized equipment. In this case the ball will be put in play in accordance with the procedure for an inadvertent whistle as in 4-2-3b.

f. When the kickers catch or recover any free kick anywhere, and when the kickers catch or recover a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone and when the kickers are first (i.e., before any touching by the receivers) to touch a scrimmage kick after it has come to rest beyond the neutral zone and between the goal lines.

g. Following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal given by any member of the receiving team when a scrimmage kick or free kick is caught or recovered by any member of the receiving team beyond, in or behind the neutral zone.

h. When a touchdown or field goal occurs.

i. During a try if B secures possession or as soon as it is apparent that a kick has failed to score.

j. When an official sounds his whistle inadvertently.

k. When the helmet comes completely off a player who is in possession of the ball.

Here are actions that cause the clock to stop.


Rule 3-4-4

The clock shall be stopped when:

a. The down ends following a foul.

b. An official’s time-out is taken.

c. A charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.

d. The period ends.

e. The ball is out of bounds.

f. A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete.

g. A score or touchback occurs.

h. A fair catch is made.

i. An inadvertent whistle is sounded.


Lets also look at Rule 3-5-9

Unless the clock is already stopped, an official’s time-out shall be taken as soon as the ball becomes dead following a change of team possession or whenever the covering official declares the ball dead, and it appears to him the ball has reached the line to gain.

Note that the situation in the original play is an official's timeout, nothing more. We don't know when to START the clock until we sort out what happened during the down. Nothing the receiving team did that caused the ball to become dead also caused the clock to stop (because the player was tackled inbounds).

Now we don't award a new series to either team until we consider the action that occured during the down. B/R isn't actually awarded a new series so that rule doesn't apply to when we start the clock.

So when do we start the clock? Again, all we have is an official's timeout. When does the clock start following an official's timeout? On the ready unless the action caused the down to end also caused the clock to stop.

REPLY: Daryl...the rule which governs the situation is actually NF 5-1-2 as BullDog and others have pointed out: <b>NF 5-1-2:</b><i>A new series of downs is awarded as follows:
a. After a first, second, or third down, a new series shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul by B.
b. After a fourth down, a new series shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, other than a non-player or unsportsmanlike foul.</i>

Since the acceptance of the penalty for foul negates the new series, no new series is awarded. Therefore, the clock starts on the ready. And remember that Mr Redding is a retired NCAA referee where the clock starts on the snap following any legal kick--regardless of whether there is a foul or not.

Unless you reset the stakes and award a first and ten, you're not awarding a new series.

OOps... and Daryl is usually so good at these.

"No live ball foul causes the ball to become dead." Yes, that's correct. The play ending on its own caused the ball to become dead. This fundamental does NOT say, "No live ball foul causes the CLOCK to stop."

A live ball foul DOES (very often, in fact) give us reason to stop the clock AFTER the ball becomes dead on it's own. Consider by way of example ye olde regular boring play - 1st and 10, run up the middle for 2 yards, a holding penalty on the play. Did the penalty cause the ball to become dead? No, of course not. Did the penalty give us reason to stop the clock after it became dead? Of course it did.

So, to answer your initial question - what caused the ball to become dead? The answer is, in fact (and in both the initial sitch and my simple example) - THE FOUL.

(And further... when do we normally start the clock after a FOUL caused us to stop the clock to administer it? On the ready. In both cases.)

Sorry preacher but you're just as wrong as the rest of them are.

No, the foul does not cause the ball to become dead. NO ONE SAID THAT IT DID. But the clock is stopped because there's a foul and to determine who will next have possession.

But like CBRoacket, you keep harping on why the clock is stopped, which is wrong. We're focusing on why we are restarting the clock. Once it's recognized that R will accept the foul, we aren't awarding a new series to anyone. We're replaying 4th down!

The clock starts on the READY.

REPLY: When a foul occurs during a down, the clock is stopped when the down ends. The reason is for an officials time out to administer the penalty. See 3-5-7j. Then look at 3-4-2a. It clearly says that following an official's timeout, the clock starts on the ready unless B is awarded a new series (they weren't) or a new series is awarded to either team following a legal kick.

The ball became dead when the scrimmage kick was recovered by K after being touched by R beyond the neutral zone. At that point the down also ended. No matter what happened on the play the officials were going to stop the clock. Why? to award a new series to either K or R.

So what if a foul occurred? After giving penalty options the only thing to determine is (1)whose possession, (2)what down and (3)whether it is a new series or not,and (4)when to start clock.

R declines K's Penalty:
1. K possession - in possession due to result of play 5-1-3f, 5-2-2
2. 1st - because new series awarded 5-1-3f, 5-2-1, 5-2-5f, 5-2-6
3. new series awarded 5-1-3f(do not confuse this with K reaching the line to gain which is NF 5-1-3a)
4. Snap 3-4-3c

R accepts penalty:
1. K possession 5-2-1
2. 4th - replay the down following enforcement. 5-2-2
3. no new series awarded.
4. Snap - 3-4-2b3. The action which caused the ball to become dead (recovery of scrimmage kick beyond neutal zone). This action also causes the clock to be stopped and the down to end.

***The action causing the clock to be stopped dictates when to start the clock. Remember 3-4-2b says start clock on ready but gives (3) exceptions which would start the clock on the snap instead. In our case exception 3 applies because the action which ended the down also DID cause the clock to stop therefore clock starts on the snap.

No - not at all true. It is true that no matter what happened on the play, the officials were going to stop the clock... but the OS here is an example not included in your choices above.

The officials were going to stop the clock no matter what happened on the play BECAUSE one of the following had to happen during the play... A) new series for A, B) new series for B, or C) a penalty on one team or the other.

The clock did not stop BECAUSE of the play in this case. It stopped because of the need to administer a penalty. After such administration, there was no series to award.

For the Nth time... stop focusing on why the clock stopped - it's irrelevant. Focus on the rule that tells us when to START the clock - it clearly states that it starts on the snap only in case of a new series for B... Since we did not have that... you start it on the ready. This is easier than we are making it.

So I guess you wouldn't start the clock on the ready for this situation either....

A's ball fourth and 4, A runs the ball and gains 3 yards, but during the play B committed defensive holding. A accepts the penalty for the defensive holding and gets awarded a first down because the ball is now beyond the line to gain.

However, according to what Daryl says... we stopped the clock to award B a new series. So the clock would not start until A snapped the ball, even though we didn't award B a new series.

But since we didn't award B series, I would start the clock on the ready.

A perfect simpler example of why we need to stop focusing on why we STOPPED the clock (there is actually no mention of this in the rules anywhere), and instead focus solely on the rules surrounding when to START the clock.

First mcrowder, while I agree with your final answer, I disagree that the reason the clcok was stopped should be ignored. That's what sets up the reat of the situation. The fact that he's incorrect about why we've stopped the clock doesn't mean that the clock stop reason should be forgotten.

Daryl. again there is no rule that says you stop the clock to award a new series. None.
In this play the reason we stop the clock, after the play is over, is that rule 3.5.7c says we have an official's T.O. called after a play ends when there was a change of team possession. Nothing to do with a new series, legal kicks, or anything else.
Take the following play 3rd down and 6 from the A45. A kicks to the B45, the ball bounces backwards to the A40 where A37 picks it up and runs to the A49. When do we start the clock?

Fair enough Jim, but show me a SINGLE instance where the rulebook tells us to do something based upon the reason a clock was stopped. You won't find one.

It's all based on the rules around when we should START the clock.

Agreed, but we're trying to point out to the "unbelievers" why we use the rules that we both agree are the ones pertinent to the play.
The reason we stop the clock in this case IS an important part of that explanation and can't be ignored. And it is a valid point to remember, not ignore, on any play. Since sometimes the reason we stopped the clock can be the determining factor about which timing rule we use.
The main point being, never ignore a part of a play. Therein lies the slippery slope to making an error.

BTW, wouldn't the ball going OB qualify for your question? The rule for starting the clock afterwards is based on why it was stopped.

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 28th, 2005 at 04:43 PM]

This may be the extreme picking of nits, and for that I apologize.

But the reasons given by the rulebook for starting the clock on the snap or on the RFP all deal with what happened to end the previous play, and not specifically on what stopped the clock. The difference is minute, and in many cases, the reason the previous play ended and the reason the clock stopped are the same. But there IS a difference, and it is that minute difference that is causing a few of our posters (even some of the more knowledgeable ones) to rule incorrectly in this case.

I'm not saying IGNORE (or if I did, I'm amending!) the previous play - I'm saying to FOCUS in the reason we start the clock on the RFP or the snap instead of the reason it stopped in the first place.

Whether the clock starts on the ready for play or snap is ALWAYS determined by why the clock was stopped on the previous down.

Anytime there is a scrimmage kick which crosses the neutral zone and is touched or grounded and the ball becomes dead there the clock will next start on the SNAP no matter what scenario or combination of fouls, loose ball, change of possessions anyone can dream up.

PERIOD

Mr D.H. Long,
I'm going to post a play from the FRD manual. I manual I reference quite often since I go from Friday to Saturday and have to switch the brain to a different rules code.

If you don't believe the result, then what can the rest of us say other than you are missing the NF point. Hit the books a little harder. You've had some excellent officials trying to point out the why's and wherefore's of this clock rule.

the Play:
4th and 10 on the K-20.
K2 is flagged for illegal motion as K1 punts.
The ball is caught by R4 and he is tackled inbounds.
Team-R accepts the penalty.

NF Ruling: The clock is restarted on the RFP. Team-R cannot be awarded a first down until the penalty is addressed, therefore the only reason for stopping the clock was the penalty.

NCAA Ruling: on the snap.

Notice the reason... it's been stated more than once in this thread of posts.

I think everyone is making this too difficult. First of all the clock stopped because the down ended following a foul. I think everyone will agree that a foul occurred during the down as stated in the description. Once the clock is stopped and the next play is not a free kick, it starts on the snap if any of the following caused or occurred subsequent to the clock being stopped. 1) a period ends, 2) a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted, 3) a score or touchback occurs, 4) a legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete, 5) the ball goes out of bounds, 6) AN OFFICIAL'S TIME-OUT IS TAKEN TO AWARD TEAM B A NEW SERIES, OR TO AWARD EITHER TEAM A NEW SERIES AFTER A LEGAL KICK, 7) a team attempts to consume time illegally, 8) a penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted.

IN ALL OTHER CASES, THE CLOCK STARTS WITH THE READY-FOR-PLAY SIGNAL.

Here is an example: On fourth down, Team K punts and is flagged for holding as the kick is made. The ball is caught by R2 who is tackled inbounds. RULING: If the penalty is accepted, the clock will start on the ready since it was stopped for the penalty and there is no major clock stopper. If the penalty is declined, the clock will start on the snap, since a new series is awarded to Team B.

Two points to remember: (1) a change of possession does not dictate when the clock starts (it's which team is awarded a new series after the change of possession that matters) and (2) Teams A and B retain their designation throughout the down.

The game clock starts on the snap whenever either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick down (3-4-3c); however, a new series is not awarded to either team until all acts which occurred during the down, including penalties for other than non-player or unsportsmanlike fouls, are considered. (5-1-2b)

LOL! This the longest thread I've ever started! :)

The sad thing is that the ruling shouldn't be that difficult. :(

Let's say you all were the BJ. You saw R touch the scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone and you saw K recover the kick.

You did not see the L throw his flag.

1. As BJ are you going to stop the clock? YES or NO
2. Why or why not?

It was a great question and so far even though I disagree with many in the post at least I like that they are justifying their answers with rules citations.

The difficult part we are have is agreeing on what caused the clock to stop. The foul? (I say no) or the recovery of the scrimmage kick? ( which I say both ended the down AND stopped the clock).

These kinds of plays have been floating around the various forums. In THIS play, K recovering a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is action that causes the down to end. It is also action that causes the clock to stop.

I have been think all along that the play was the same as the one from the FRD where an R player is tackled inbounds after the kick.

I agree with Daryl on this one. Because the action that caused the down to end (K recovering a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone) also cause the clock to stop (an official's timeout), the clock starts for the next play on the snap.

Did someone change the contents of the play or have I been so dense that I didn't read it? :D

Daryl and Mike - I can't see why this is hard. It's nearly identical to the caseplay posted above that tells you to start it on the RFP. AND, people have posted, several times, the rules that tell you when to start the clock on the snap, and this sitch doesn't fit. Daryl continues to go back to the reason the clock was stopped - 99% of the time, the same reason you would be using to determine whether the clock starts on the RFP or snap... but NOT in this case.

Please, Daryl - if you insist you are still right, give us the actual quote from the rulebook that supports your assertion. Plenty of people have quoted the rulebook that supports the other side of this coin.

Sure you stop the clock when K recovers the kick beyond the line of scrimmage. The question is when does the clock start.

If either team is awarded a first down (the chains are reset and a new line to gain is established), then the clock will restart when the ball is snapped.

If neither team is awarded a first down (the line to gain remains the same) because of a foul, then the clock would be restarted on the ready if the kick did not go out of bounds, or the clock did not stop because of an incomplete pass (legal or illegal), fair catch, or touchback or score.

Look through the entire list of things that stop the clock.
Rule 3.4.4 a through i. and Rule 3.5.7. (officials time-outs) a. through m. The one that applies when there is no penalty and K recovers a muffed kick beyond the line is
3.5.7. b. "When a first down is declared" since there was no change of team possession. If R recovers and is downed, then 3.5.7 c. "Following a change of team possession" and 3.5.7. b. 3.5.9 comes into play too. With a foul then it is 3.5.7. j. These are all "official's timeouts".

Notice that you don't see recovery of a legal kick beyond the line in any of them.

Okay, we have administered the penalty.... Did a new line to gain get established for either team? Yes... then we start the clock on the snap. No... K has retained possession and the line to gain remains the same and we are replaying the down. Then the clock would start on the ready for play.

Then looking at 3.4.2 a. The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped:
a) For an official's time-out; other tha when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.
(If the line to gain is re-established, then we don't start the clock until the ball is snapped, if the line to gain remains the same then we start on the ready.)

Yes, the clock is stopped because there was a kick.

Yes, the clock was stopped because there was a flag.

There's no disputing that.

Now, what determines when the clock restarts is what happens next.

If the penalty is declined, then the clock starts on the snap because A NEW SERIES HAS BEEN AWARDED.

If the penalty is accepted, then the clock starts on the ready because a NEW SERIES HAS NOT BEEN AWARDED.

It's doesn't get anymore more simple than that.

You guys are too focused on why the clock stopped. Read the rule on when the clock starts. That's what you should be focusing on. The clock doesn't start on the snap unless A NEW SERIES HAS BEEN AWARDED.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Sep 29th, 2005 at 10:31 AM]

A rookies' 2 cents
 

I read "Referee" from October, and on page 21, Rogers Redding explained "If administering a penalty is one of the reasons for stopping the clock, remember the two iron-clad principles for starting it again: the clock should start as it would have if there had been no foul and the clock starts on the snap if the ball will next belong to team B no matter why it was stopped. The second reason trumps the first."

Correct a dumb rookie if I'm wrong, but aren't we killing the clock on each and every 4th down play, due to the fact that either A, or B is getting a new series?

If I am to take Redding's words as gospel, and consider why the clock was stopped as if there was no foul in the original situation (stated 6 pages ago :4th and 10, and R muffs punt, with K recovering), after K regained possession of the muff, was it in advance of the line to gain? If not, R would take over on downs, and the clock would start on the snap. If the recovered muff IS in advance of the LTG, then K is awarded a new series, chains move, and clock starts on RFP.

Sorry to add to this convoluted discussion, but I need clarification.

J

Another question
 

What was the live ball illegal procedure foul?

J

Where in the rule book does it say that the clock starts on the snap when R recovers a scrimmage kick? 3-4-2 says it starts on the ready when stopped for an official's TO, except when B is awarded a new series (not here), or when either team is awarded a new series following a legal scrimmage kick (not here).

If you're hanging your hat on action causing the down to end also stops the clock then what are those actions? 3-4-4 says those actions are:

a. down ends following a foul (here)
b. An official's TO (here, for the foul)
c. B awarded new series (not here)
d. Period ends (not here)
e. Out of bounds (not here, recovered inbounds)
f. legal or illegal fwd pass incomplete (not here)
g. score or touchback (not here)
h. fair catch (not here)
i. an IW (not here)

Further 3-4-3 says the clock starts on the snap if the clock was stopped for:

a. ball OB (not here)
b. B gets a new series (not here)
c. Either team gets a new series following a legal kick (not here)
d. dead behind the goalling (not here)
e. incomplete pass (not here)
f. TO (not here)
g. period ends (not here)
h. illegal time consumption (not here)
i. delay of game (not here)

So, the only items which have occurred here are 3-4-4-a. and b. which means you go back to 3-4-2 as I outlined above. Start on the ready because it was an official's TO to administer the penalty. Sorry if this is a repeat but this has been bugging me some aren't getting it.


[Edited by schwinn on Sep 29th, 2005 at 10:58 AM]

Re: Another question
 

Yep, illegal procedure was the original foul cited.

Yes, we do stop the clock after every fourth down play by A or K.

The question is when does the clock restart.

If after a legal scrimmage kick either team is awarded a new series, then the clock would start on the snap.

The question here is after a legal scrimmage kick, when does the clock start if the down is replayed and K is not awarded a new series of downs. In this case because a foul for illegal procedure by K is accepted.

Remember, there is no illegal procedure penalty. Signal 19 was amended to remove illegal procedure. There is illegal formation, false start, etc. but no illegal procedure anymore.

True, so it must have really been an illegal formation or some
other live ball foul by K.

Good thing I don't have a mike, I might use the wrong words from many years of calling it illegal procedure when using signal 19. ;)

Just because an official doesn't tap his chest with his two hands doesn't mean it's not a official's TO.

I quess if you look at the rule book it starts on the ready. If you go by your gut feelings it starts on the snap. I go by the rule book.

Alright. I think I am back on the side of starting it on the ready-for-play again. I had a lengthy post to try to prove my point and it dawned on me how I couldn't find the rules support. I have since deleted the post (only there for a minute at the most).

The action that killed the down stopped the clock only because a first down was declared. While the action that caused the down to end and cause the clock to stop are simultaneous, in reality we only have an officials timeout to move the chains. (3-5-7b) and nothing that meets the criteria for keeping the clock stopped until the snap.


Because K doesn't get to keep the new series by virtue of their foul, the clock starts on the ready-for-play.

I waffled a little but I am back on the straight and narrow now.

Thanks guys.

Did K make the line to gain?
 

Forgive my ignorance, but was there not a piece of information missing on the case as originally stated?

If there had been no foul, was K's recovery beyond the line to gain, or not?

If not, R gets the ball, correct? Clock starts on snap.

If the line to gain was made on the recovery, K's ball, new series, correct? Clock starts on RFP.

According to the article cited above in "Referee" , Oct., pg. 21 this is how we should determine when we start the clock: Treat it as if there were no foul, and ask ourselves, why did we stop it, new series for K, or change of possesion, new series for B? Is this article in error?

J

The rule I hang my hat on is NF 3-4-2b3. It gives three exceptions to starting on the ready for play.

It is written in the negative tense so lets rewrite it in the positive tense. To do so we have to state it exactly opposite. That means removing the NO/NOT and changing ready for play to snap.

If written in the positive it would look like this:

Art.2...The clock shall start on the SNAP for other than a free kick it the clock was STOPPED:
a. ....
b. Because the ball has become dead following any foul
provided in either (a) or (b):
1. There has been a charged time-out during the dead ball interval.
2. The down is an extension of a period or try.
**** 3. The action which caused the down to end also caused the clock to be stopped.

Since in our sitch the action which caused the down to end (the recovery of the scrimmage kick) also caused the clock to be stopped....therefore according to NF 3-4-2b3 the clock starts on the SNAP.

Also please note one other thing. In both 3-4-2 and 3-4-3 The reason given in both rules for starting clock on snap or ready for play depends ENTIRELY ON WHY THE CLOCK WAS STOPPED.

3-4-2 The clock shall start with the ready for play signal ...IF THE CLOCK WAS STOPPED:

Then the list.

3-4-3 The clock shall start with the snap...IF THE CLOCK WAS STOPPED BECAUSE:

Then the list.

It has nothing to do with whose posession or what down is next.

Mike: don't start wavering on me. You wrote brilliantly in agreement with me.

To those of you relying on FRD..throw it away and just rely on rule books.

[Edited by Daryl H. Long on Sep 29th, 2005 at 01:58 PM]

Re: A rookies' 2 cents
 

You're missing a point here with your question about whether the ball wound up beyond the LTG. R was the first to touch the kick beyond the expanded neutral zone. So, if there is not an accepted non-psk foul (note that part of the rule) the ball will belong to the team in possession at the end of the down and they will be awarded a new series. 5.1.3f

As to stopping the clock after a 4th down, what rule(s) says that we stop the clock here? That will point you in the right direction. (Papers must be submitted by the end of class on Thursday)

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 29th, 2005 at 02:08 PM]

Re: Did K make the line to gain?
 

If there had been no foul, since R touched (muffed) the ball beyond the line of scrimmage. If K recovered the ball, it is K's ball with a new series...first and 10, no matter where K recovered the ball.

In this situation, since K gets a new series after a legal scrimmage kick, the clock would start on the snap.
( the above assumes no fouls during the play and that K did not commit first touching - R's muff was the only touching of the ball beyond the line of scrimmage.) Also, in this situation, if K recovers the ball behind the line of scrimmage they may advance the ball. If K recovers the ball beyond the line of scrimmage, they may not advance the ball.

Darryl H. Long

Hit the nail on the head with rule 3.4.2b3.

Sorry, I deleted the post.

I am doing some more research.

Daryl: Actions causing the down to end and stopping the clock are listed in 3-4-4. If this punt would have gone OB, then you would have started on the snap after penalty enforcement. If a fair catch would have been made it starts on snap after penalty enforcement. If this play would have been an incomplete forward pass it would start on the snap after penalty enforcement. If this would have been an interception and had penalty acceptance you would start on the ready as you had a completed pass inbounds.

This was a punt recovery inbounds, the clock stopped originally because of the recovered punt, as you always would but when you discover the penalty the overriding reason the clock stops is 5-1-2 and nothing more. As the penalty has to be accounted for, the reason then that the clock stopped was for the penalty and the associated TO, not the recovery. Please Daryl for all our sakes and the lives of our loved ones, accept that it starts on the ready.

Schwinn, You're close, BUT, can you find a rule that says we stop the clock after a recovered punt (scrimage kick)? Remember the rule must fit all recovered punts to make your assertion correct.
Daryl's only problem here is that he is taking an end result and trying to make it a cause.
This type of discussion is good for the grou. It gets people thinking AND reading.

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 29th, 2005 at 04:02 PM]

You're right. I even asked that in my first post to counter Daryl's argument. It's 3 pm, my mind is foggy, I need a cup o' joe and a cookie and I'll be back on track.

New series 1 and 10?
 

I3Will,

Sorry, I still don't understand why K's recovery of a muffed punt awards them a new series 1 and 10? Ball never changed possession, and the recovery was not in advance of line to gain? Am I missing the forest for the trees? If K is giving up their right to the ball (punt), and they get it back off R's muff, is not the only way they retain possession if they make that original line to gain?

Jaysef

The muff is well beyond the line to gain... but only needs to be beyond the expanded neutral zone.

as long as K does not recover in or behind the neutral zone.... It would be then K's ball first in ten.

Re: New series 1 and 10?
 

Originally posted by Jaysef
Sorry, I still don't understand why K's recovery of a muffed punt awards them a new series 1 and 10? Ball never changed possession, and the recovery was not in advance of line to gain?

Rule 5-1-3...When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to: (f) The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred before the kick ended.

Am I missing the forest for the trees? Yes.

If K is giving up their right to the ball (punt), and they get it back off R's muff, is not the only way they retain possession if they make that original line to gain? No.

Re: New series 1 and 10?
 

Rule 6-2-4 ... Any kicker may catch or recover a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the neutral zone or expanded neutral zone, provided such kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of touching. Such touching is ignored if it is caused by K legally batting or muffing the ball into R. Such catch or recovery by K beyond the neutral zone causes the ball to become dead. (See 6-5-6 exception)

5.1.3 ... When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:
Rule 5.1.3f The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred before the kick ended.

.... so if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the line, then next down is going to be first down for either R or K no matter where the ball is recovered, if there are no fouls to complicate things. ;)


[Edited by l3will on Sep 29th, 2005 at 05:31 PM]

Re: New series 1 and 10?
 

Jaysref, read the fundamental statments about kicks in the rule book. If R is ever 1st to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ. it will be 1st down for the team in possession when the down ends, barring enforcement of any foul that might hve been committed during the down.

Best of luck with your new avocation.

IThanks Jack013
 

I was reading the section you referenced this morning and now I see the light. Thanks for the help.

J

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim S
[B]Schwinn, You're close, BUT, can you find a rule that says we stop the clock after a recovered punt (scrimage kick)? Remember the rule must fit all recovered punts to make your assertion correct.
Daryl's only problem here is that he is taking an end result and trying to make it a cause.
This type of discussion is good for the grou. It gets people thinking AND reading.

[Edited by Daryl H. Long on Sep 30th, 2005 at 03:54 PM]