In 5-man mechanics for high school:

Prior to the snap, the fullback lunges forward (got the snap count wrong.) What is the call and who's call is it?

Both officials (wings and Referee I am talking about) can call this.

You could either have a false start. No one on offense can simulate the snap. I would especially have a false start if the defense reacted to the FB's movement. Or you could let it go and have an illegal shift if the player never got set in the proper time frame.

Peace

This can be a real bugger for wing guys. When the B sideline sees this they frequenly scream for a false start. But like you said, I usually only call it if B reacts, otherwise I treat it like motion/shift.

Explaining it to the coach is often the fun part. I tell him exactly what I thought (yeah he jumped but it was motion not a false start) and they usually accept that. The problem comes when you are inconsistent--especially in the same game!

[Edited by Suudy on Sep 19th, 2005 at 08:05 PM]

A thought...
 

Here's an opinion of mine that some may agree with and some may not, but I think it should be out there regardless.

I think either the wings or referee can call this and I believe we should stick with the straight definition of it being a false start, not a motion or shift and here's why:

It is a lot easier to just kill the play and move it back 5 yards, then it is to bring back a touchdown, first down, etc.

I think if you let this call go as a live ball foul, sooner or later it will catch up to you and you'll wind up having to bring a great play back where you could've just killed it right then and there.

It does state in the rule book (and this is just from memory) that action that simulates or feigns the start of the play is a false start and NEVER specifies what player position.

Simply missing the snap count and leaving early is not a false start by a back. It has to simulate action at the snap. I have called illegal shift for not being set more often than not. Generally, a false start is by an interior lineman. Most movement by backs, I don't make it a dead ball foul unless it is more of a jerking motion that looks like action at the snap. This is purely judgment by each official.

Let's be careful, going early by a back is not necessarily a false start, or even illegal motion. There are some teams who
have the back take a step forward as part of legally going into motion, the back is going back when the ball is snapped.

The back legally establishes himself in the back field by setting with the rest of the team. Takes a step forward, then parallels the line of scrimmage or goes back away from the line of scrimmage.

The state association even emphasized that too many officials were calling false starts on backs. They emphasized that if a back or end was going forward at the snap that it should be called as illegal motion, unless it was obvious that
it simulated action at the snap or intended to draw a reaction by B and A did not violate the neutral zone.

It's a fine line, I know, but if there is no reaction, I think you have to either call illegal motion if the back is going forward at the snap or if at the snap he is going parallel or back then the motion would be legal.

Anything in the backfield should be R's call. Wings don't pick up the action until the LOS. Remeber, if he simulates the snap, get 'em for the false start. But I would be a little more leniate with this than say, a tackle or guard. Give the back the benefit of the doubt. He really doesn't gain an advantage and many of the defenders won't see him jump anyway.

I do not think anyone is saying to just call a false start on a back just because they move. The question dealt with a back missing the snap count and lunging forward. This is strictly a judgment call. The point is you can have a false start on a back. There is a big difference between going in motion and lunging forward.

Peace

Agree it is a judgment call, but I have seen many backs take a very quick step forward as part of going into motion legally.
Interestingly, B, when playing this type of team never seems to react to that motion, I guess because they watch films or were coached about how A went into motion.



[Edited by l3will on Sep 19th, 2005 at 11:58 PM]

This is why we get paid the big bucks.

Peace

Here's a hint, if a back misses a count but it could be motion and the ball is snapped then just kill it dead. Don't let the play go as the defense will gain an advantage.

And that is exactly why the state association wants it to be a live ball foul and illegal motion, not a false start.

That's interesting, I don't really agree with that. If you aren't sure it should be a false start. Nothing good can come from letting the play go, but that's just my opinion I guess.

I hate it when the judgement of officials comes from the "Nothing good can come from letting this go" department. That's not our job. If it was, we'd kill EVERY play the moment we see a penalty. We don't do that - so why the motivation to do that in this case? The defense should have the opportunity to decline an illegal shift penalty - don't take that away from them.

You just want a rule of thumb? Here it is.

If, after seeing the back move, you would have let him reset had the ball not been snapped at that moment, then you have an illegal shift. If you would NOT have let him reset had the ball not been snapped, you have a false start.

In another sport, we used to have a "boss" that told us, "We are paid to make judgement calls, so make them!"

In this case, I think you have to "read the mind" of the back. Did he false start or can he save himself now by going into motion and resetting? In all my years of football, I don't ever recall any formation requiring the back to take one quick step forward and reset. Granted, I'm not the offensive coordinator designing the play, but I've usually got a pretty good idea of what was supposed to happen from the way the player reacted. I think you give the back time to make the step into motion and maybe reset and if he does, let it go. If not, it was a false start.

And by the way, I believe this is the referee's call all the way.

Thank you for all your responses.

I do believe this is a judgement call. If you've done enough games (or even if you haven't) I believe you can tell whether or not a back is shifting or going in motion and when it is a false start (he just plain messed up.)

I believe the rules state that action which simulates or feigns the start of a play is a false start. And with that it doesn't specify which position can committ it or that its different by position. A false start is a false start. Now if the back is head strong enough that he knows he messed up and goes into motion or shifts, (and it doesn't give the appearance of a false start) then yes, let it go.

I can't determine who's call it should be. Yes, the wings are watching the line, but if the ball is snapped on the opposite hash from you, you can still see the entire backfield. I think the responsibility should fall on both wing and referee.

Again, thanks for the responses, I appreciate all the insight and if you have anything further on this topic, by all means continue to share. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I have a feeling this is one of those things that may be debated back and forth for a while. But I think its been a good discussion so far and should continue. I know its got me thinking...

REPLY: My opinion is this. If anyone misses the snap count and moves, he's doing so the same way he would if the snap had occurred. How could he not be simulating action at the snap? Fullback "lunges" forward?? There's your answer. Backs shifting or going in motion do not "lunge" forward. You will never see such a play go off on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. Every single college official and NFL official that I know would shut the play down. Nothing good can happen letting that play go off. And all that horse hockey about "He's a back. He can reset" went out with ballooned cotton knickers and stirrup socks. A back can reset ONLY if he hasn't committed a false start. The back in the original post has.

For WHOM? The defense could intercept a pass or recover a fumble and take it to the house.

Regardless, I will shut that "lunge" down too. It's a false start. And the WH has to get it, IMO.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Sep 20th, 2005 at 11:28 PM]

I agree wholeheartedly. Missed snap count=simulating action at the snap

I agree that "lunges" implies simulating action at the snap...
but I don't agree that missing the snap count means that it is an automatic false start. You have to see it to call it and use good judgment.

This is always a judgment call.
 

This is a judgment call. If you feel the player simulates the snap, you have a foul. If you have them just move, you might not have a foul. We do not need to complicate this issue.

Peace

There is a huge difference between a back going into motion/shifting, and a back missing a count, or at least for me there is.

My first year I tossed a flag a couple of times and blew the play dead. WH gets on me about it.

Following week at the assoc. meeting my 'false starts' are brought up and the assoc tells me they allow a back to jump - and then reset. Fine.

Following week I let a back 'false start' and reset and catch hell from the HC on my side. Nice, eh? I tell him I've been informed a back is allowed to reset when he "shifts". "Shifts!?!?! Shifts!?!? That was a false start sir!!!"

"Okay coach."

I hate that call, but I'm not arguing with 15-20yr WH's and one WH which is in his 50th season. But I do know a False Start (Simulating action at the snap), from a back who is shifting thank you very much.

WM

One additional question...
 

Thanks for all the responses. I have one additional question that I don't think we covered.


Regardless the action in the backfield, who's call is it?

Wing, Referee, or both...?

Quick glance through the NF officials' manual is little help - it lists "false start" under pre-snap responsibilities for all officials without specifying who gets which.

For me, R has sole responsibility for backs in the backfield. R & U each have QB and interior linemen. Wings have any linemen they can see, and any split ends/flankers/etc. to their side.

We had one last night along these lines. We had a back start to move, then reset. (no foul) And then we had a wideout move prior to the snap(IM). We let the play go and came back to have IM. As R, I didn't see the wideout move. At first, I thought the wing had IM on the back, but I told him he could reset. We ended up with IM. These types of situations need to be discussed more and we have done a better job on these in our pregame. I got into a discussion with another official from another crew and he thinks a back moving is a false start and I said that it is only if the motion is really jerky and is causing movement into the neutral zone by B. As noticed in this thread, it is a gray area and I don't think it has to be. I have no problem bringing back a long play if we had motion because, frankly, it is not a "great" play if it had a foul in it.

Re: One additional question...
 

I think your question has been covered. I'll interject a few comments.
Backs lined up say between the ends should be the R's call. Backs lined up wider then the ends could be the R's call should he be looking though to that side otherwise a wing official should see this.

You flag it if you really beleive the guy missed the snap count. 99% of the time that's just what they did. I matters not to me that any defensive player reacted.

The "who's call is it" always bothers me. It's the responsibilty of the "4 or 5" to get it right...if you see it, flag it, even if you need to run across the field. In this case you can't call this play dead as a false start because its only a foul at the snap. The back has the opportunity to reset or go in motion. An example would be if the snap count was on three and the back jumps on one, he would have the time to reset.