Substitution issue.

JRutledge · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 18, 2005, 09:19pm

Tell me what you have on this play.

Home team has the ball is in the middle of the field. The visiting team is on defense and between downs is making multiple substitutions. After all the substitutions were apparently made, the visiting team (on defense) had 13 players on the field as the offensive team comes to the LOS to run their play. B13 runs off the field when he realizes he is not supposed to be there. B12 is confused if he is supposed to leave the field. B12 yo-yos back and forth around midfield and cannot decide for sure if he is supposed to be on the field. The offensive team QB has started his cadence and ready to start their play.

What do you call? Is there anything to call? Who should make a call if any? I would also like rule references in your responses.

Peace

Snake~eyes · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 18, 2005, 09:27pm

DBF Illegal Substitution.

Rule 3-7-2
A player, replaced player or a substitute who has been unable to complete the substitution, is required to leave the field at the side on which his team box is located and go directly to his team box.

PENALTY: Illegal subsitution.

This call should be made by whoever is counting defense, wing on defense's sideline and the BJ/SJ/FJ depending on how many you have on the field

[Edited by Snake~eyes on Sep 18th, 2005 at 10:30 PM]

BayouUmp · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 18, 2005, 10:05pm

Blow and throw. Kill it before the snap for Illegal Sub (5 yards) and avoid the harsher Illegal Participation (15 yards).

MJT · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 18, 2005, 11:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Tell me what you have on this play.

Home team has the ball is in the middle of the field. The visiting team is on defense and between downs is making multiple substitutions. After all the substitutions were apparently made, the visiting team (on defense) had 13 players on the field as the offensive team comes to the LOS to run their play. B13 runs off the field when he realizes he is not supposed to be there. B12 is confused if he is supposed to leave the field. B12 yo-yos back and forth around midfield and cannot decide for sure if he is supposed to be on the field. The offensive team QB has started his cadence and ready to start their play.

What do you call? Is there anything to call? Who should make a call if any? I would also like rule references in your responses.

Peace

This is not a case where it is a DBF. The only way it would be a DBF is if he is set up in formation and is going to be there at the snap. If he may get off, he can do so and if he does not make it, it is a live ball IS foul. See 3.7.1.B in the casebook. This would be a live ball IS foul if he does not make it off the field. If he gets confused and ends up participating, it is IP. You see it all the time with a late defensive substitution and the guy does not get to the sideline before the snap.

Rule 3-7-4 discusses this and it is a LB foul.

Snake~eyes · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 18, 2005, 11:15pm

As stated in McGriffs, read the comment of situation 3.7.1.B, maybe I'm just tired and misreading things but I believe it specifically says DBF.

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 18, 2005, 11:19pm

MJT,

Who said anything about it having to be a DBF? I just was asking for opinions. I have not given my opinion on what should be done yet.

BTW, most of the case plays talk about Illegal Substitutions being dead ball fouls. Look at 3.7 plays.

Peace

MJT · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 18, 2005, 11:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
MJT,

Who said anything about it having to be a DBF? I just was asking for opinions. I have not given my opinion on what should be done yet.

BTW, most of the case plays talk about Illegal Substitutions being dead ball fouls. Look at 3.7 plays.

Peace

Snake~eyes and BayouUmp both said DBF. You see this quite often and if he gets off as he is sprinting for the sideline you have no foul, but if he doesn't, you have a flag simultaneous with the snap and a live ball foul.

The comment in 3.7.a was in error when it said DBF, and it was corrected on the NF website along with a ton of other case book plays this year.

casebook corrections on NF website says "*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)" 3-7-4 is a live ball foul as stated in the rule book.

Rut, I never said you indicated it was DBF. I know you had not yet stated your opinion. 3-7-1,2,3 are DBFouls and 3-7-4 and 5 are LBFouls. This play fits into 4.

[Edited by MJT on Sep 19th, 2005 at 12:35 AM]

Snake~eyes · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 18, 2005, 11:48pm

I know this is wierd but I think it falls under 3-7-2 but I don't believe its the intent. It says a player who is unable to complete subsitution must leave through the team box. Did the player leave through the team box on his side of the field? No, so I don't see how you can't argue this as being a DBF, but again the intent seems like this play would be a LBF.

MJT · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 12:02am

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
I know this is wierd but I think it falls under 3-7-2 but I don't believe its the intent. It says a player who is unable to complete subsitution must leave through the team box. Did the player leave through the team box on his side of the field? No, so I don't see how you can't argue this as being a DBF, but again the intent seems like this play would be a LBF.

This is off of the NF website: "Rules Book Corrections:
3-7-2, Page 41: A player, replaced player or a substitute who has been unable to complete the substitution, (the last statement - who has been unable to complete his substitution - has been crossed out) is required to leave the field at the side on which his team box is located and go directly to his team box." The reason is is crossed out is cuz it fall under 3-7-4, which is a LBFoul and 3-7-2 is a DBFoul.

That, along with the correction in the case book indicate that this is LB foul. If he goes to the other teams sideline, it is a DBFoul, as stated in the corrections of casebook errors on the NF website. It says this; "3.7.3 SITUATION A: B11 mistakenly believes he is his team's 12th player and leaves the field before the snap (a) on his opponent's sideline, or (b) on his sideline and enters his team box. B11 then discovers his error and returns to field on his team's side of the neutral zone before the snap. RULING: REPLACE WITH: Illegal in (a) which is a dead ball foul for illegal substitution (3-7-2). In (b) the action is legal, but if done intentionally to gain an advantage, it would be an unsportsmanlike foul. If B11 returns to the field after the snap it is a live ball foul for illegal participation in (a) and (b). (9-5-1f; 9-6-4a)"

Now, if you get your count on the defense and they are not attempting to get off the field, and the snap is imminent, we have a DBF, but if he is trying to get off on his own side, it is a LBF for IS.

grantsrc · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 05:55am

There has been tons of confusion about a situation like this, me included. LBF vs. DBF.

3-7-4: During a down a replaced player or substitute who attempts unsuccessfully to leave the field and who does not participate in or affect the play, constitutes an illegal substitution.

Illegal substitution (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) Â– (S22); (Arts. 1, 2, 3) dead-ball foul Â– (S7-22); (Arts. 4, 5) live-ball foul Â– 5 yards.

If the player is making an effort to leave the field, play goes but it is a live ball, IS foul that is enforced from the previous spot.

mikesears · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 06:52am

The rulebook seems to address 2 situations.

(1) A player knows he is supposed to leave the field and tries to do so.

(2) A player does not know he is supposed to leave the field and is positioned in the formation.

What we have in the play in question is the middle ground--a player who is unsure if he is to be out there. If we let the snap occur, we are in danger of having to call the bigger foul. If we kill before the snap, we might get a coach upset because he could have called a timeout to fix the problem.

I am of the opinion that we should kill the play. The penalty is for failure of a replaced player to leave the field immediately. If he is waffling, he isn't leaving immediately.

Snake~eyes · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 07:02am

Okay MJT, looks like you got me! I will have to make the corrections in my rulebook later today.

Forksref · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 07:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by BayouUmp
Blow and throw. Kill it before the snap for Illegal Sub (5 yards) and avoid the harsher Illegal Participation (15 yards).

Not only to avoid the harsher penalty, but for safety reasons I flag it and whistle it when I see that the snap is imminent.

jwaz · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 07:56am

These are all great posts about this issue, but I am still not sure what the NF rule states in this situation. I have been blowing it dead at the snap DBF unless the 12th player is running off the field & almost to his sideline at snap (LBF). Either way IS on defense.

BulldogMcC · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 19, 2005, 08:07am

Quote:

Originally posted by jwaz
These are all great posts about this issue, but I am still not sure what the NF rule states in this situation. I have been blowing it dead at the snap DBF unless the 12th player is running off the field & almost to his sideline at snap (LBF). Either way IS on defense.

If 12 defensive players are in formation and no replaced player is apparent and trying to get off the field, it is a dead ball foul for IS. (3-7-1)Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field immediately. The basis for the dead ball foul is that the replaced player failed to leave the field immediately, although a reasonable amount of time is allowed for him to start leaving, typically around 5 seconds for this to occur.
A replaced player, attempting to get off the field but is still on the field when the ball is snapped is a Liveball foul for IS. If he thereafter participates in the play, it becomes IP, but if the 12th guy does not get off the field (around here that is behind the wing and we are not always toes on the sideline but close thereto) the opponents of that player will be given the option to take 5 yards from the previous spot and repeat the down or take the result of the play.

In short, if it is about to become Illegal Participation at the snap (12 players in position) then kill it and bang them for the dead ball Illegal Substitution, but if it is not going to become IP at the snap, let it go and let the offended team have the options.