Tell me what you have on this play.

Home team has the ball is in the middle of the field. The visiting team is on defense and between downs is making multiple substitutions. After all the substitutions were apparently made, the visiting team (on defense) had 13 players on the field as the offensive team comes to the LOS to run their play. B13 runs off the field when he realizes he is not supposed to be there. B12 is confused if he is supposed to leave the field. B12 yo-yos back and forth around midfield and cannot decide for sure if he is supposed to be on the field. The offensive team QB has started his cadence and ready to start their play.

What do you call? Is there anything to call? Who should make a call if any? I would also like rule references in your responses.

Peace

DBF Illegal Substitution.

Rule 3-7-2
A player, replaced player or a substitute who has been unable to complete the substitution, is required to leave the field at the side on which his team box is located and go directly to his team box.

PENALTY: Illegal subsitution.

This call should be made by whoever is counting defense, wing on defense's sideline and the BJ/SJ/FJ depending on how many you have on the field

[Edited by Snake~eyes on Sep 18th, 2005 at 10:30 PM]

Blow and throw. Kill it before the snap for Illegal Sub (5 yards) and avoid the harsher Illegal Participation (15 yards).

This is not a case where it is a DBF. The only way it would be a DBF is if he is set up in formation and is going to be there at the snap. If he may get off, he can do so and if he does not make it, it is a live ball IS foul. See 3.7.1.B in the casebook. This would be a live ball IS foul if he does not make it off the field. If he gets confused and ends up participating, it is IP. You see it all the time with a late defensive substitution and the guy does not get to the sideline before the snap.

Rule 3-7-4 discusses this and it is a LB foul.

As stated in McGriffs, read the comment of situation 3.7.1.B, maybe I'm just tired and misreading things but I believe it specifically says DBF.

MJT,

Who said anything about it having to be a DBF? I just was asking for opinions. I have not given my opinion on what should be done yet.

BTW, most of the case plays talk about Illegal Substitutions being dead ball fouls. Look at 3.7 plays.

Peace

Snake~eyes and BayouUmp both said DBF. You see this quite often and if he gets off as he is sprinting for the sideline you have no foul, but if he doesn't, you have a flag simultaneous with the snap and a live ball foul.

The comment in 3.7.a was in error when it said DBF, and it was corrected on the NF website along with a ton of other case book plays this year.

casebook corrections on NF website says "*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)" 3-7-4 is a live ball foul as stated in the rule book.

Rut, I never said you indicated it was DBF. I know you had not yet stated your opinion. 3-7-1,2,3 are DBFouls and 3-7-4 and 5 are LBFouls. This play fits into 4.

[Edited by MJT on Sep 19th, 2005 at 12:35 AM]

I know this is wierd but I think it falls under 3-7-2 but I don't believe its the intent. It says a player who is unable to complete subsitution must leave through the team box. Did the player leave through the team box on his side of the field? No, so I don't see how you can't argue this as being a DBF, but again the intent seems like this play would be a LBF.

This is off of the NF website: "Rules Book Corrections:
3-7-2, Page 41: A player, replaced player or a substitute who has been unable to complete the substitution, <b> (the last statement - who has been unable to complete his substitution - has been crossed out) </b>is required to leave the field at the side on which his team box is located and go directly to his team box." The reason is is crossed out is cuz it fall under 3-7-4, which is a LBFoul and 3-7-2 is a DBFoul.

That, along with the correction in the case book indicate that this is LB foul. If he goes to the other teams sideline, it is a DBFoul, as stated in the corrections of casebook errors on the NF website. It says this; "3.7.3 SITUATION A: B11 mistakenly believes he is his team's 12th player and leaves the field before the snap (a) on his opponent's sideline, or (b) on his sideline and enters his team box. B11 then discovers his error and returns to field on his team's side of the neutral zone before the snap. RULING: REPLACE WITH: Illegal in (a) which is a dead ball foul for illegal substitution (3-7-2). In (b) the action is legal, but if done intentionally to gain an advantage, it would be an unsportsmanlike foul. If B11 returns to the field after the snap it is a live ball foul for illegal participation in (a) and (b). (9-5-1f; 9-6-4a)"


Now, if you get your count on the defense and they are not attempting to get off the field, and the snap is imminent, we have a DBF, but if he is trying to get off on his own side, it is a LBF for IS.

There has been tons of confusion about a situation like this, me included. LBF vs. DBF.

3-7-4: During a down a replaced player or substitute who attempts unsuccessfully to leave the field and who does not participate in or affect the play, constitutes an illegal substitution.

Illegal substitution (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) – (S22); (Arts. 1, 2, 3) dead-ball foul – (S7-22); (Arts. 4, 5) live-ball foul – 5 yards.

If the player is making an effort to leave the field, play goes but it is a live ball, IS foul that is enforced from the previous spot.

The rulebook seems to address 2 situations.

(1) A player knows he is supposed to leave the field and tries to do so.

(2) A player does not know he is supposed to leave the field and is positioned in the formation.

What we have in the play in question is the middle ground--a player who is unsure if he is to be out there. If we let the snap occur, we are in danger of having to call the bigger foul. If we kill before the snap, we might get a coach upset because he could have called a timeout to fix the problem.

I am of the opinion that we should kill the play. The penalty is for failure of a replaced player to leave the field immediately. If he is waffling, he isn't leaving immediately.

Okay MJT, looks like you got me! I will have to make the corrections in my rulebook later today.

Not only to avoid the harsher penalty, but for safety reasons I flag it and whistle it when I see that the snap is imminent.

These are all great posts about this issue, but I am still not sure what the NF rule states in this situation. I have been blowing it dead at the snap DBF unless the 12th player is running off the field & almost to his sideline at snap (LBF). Either way IS on defense.

• If 12 defensive players are in formation and no replaced player is apparent and trying to get off the field, it is a dead ball foul for IS. (3-7-1)Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field immediately. The basis for the dead ball foul is that the replaced player failed to leave the field immediately, although a reasonable amount of time is allowed for him to start leaving, typically around 5 seconds for this to occur.
• A replaced player, attempting to get off the field but is still on the field when the ball is snapped is a Liveball foul for IS. If he thereafter participates in the play, it becomes IP, but if the 12th guy does not get off the field (around here that is behind the wing and we are not always toes on the sideline but close thereto) the opponents of that player will be given the option to take 5 yards from the previous spot and repeat the down or take the result of the play.

In short, if it is about to become Illegal Participation at the snap (12 players in position) then kill it and bang them for the dead ball Illegal Substitution, but if it is not going to become IP at the snap, let it go and let the offended team have the options.

More information.
 

Let me add to this discussion a bit.

Let say the 12th player was close to the opponent’s side of the field. Then the coach yells at the player from across the field to "GET OFF THE FIELD." Then the 12 player starts heading toward his team's sideline. When do you consider the player to in the process of "attempting to get off the field?" Does he have to be past the numbers? Does he have to be past the hash marks? What if the coach never says "get off the field" and B12 runs towards his sideline, but you are unsure if he realizes he is not supposed to be on the field or just thinks he is playing the wrong position?

I guess my basic question is what constitutes "leaving the field?" When are they leaving the field or just confused as to where they are supposed to be?

Peace

Re: More information.
 

If there is a player sprinting towards his sideline, I will assume he is trying to get off the field. If 12 players are on D and none are sprinting towards the sideline when the snap is imminent, I am blowing it dead for the deadball IS. This is actually strange now that we explore this further...

B12 realizes that he is the extra man on the field and starts to sprint off the field but realizes he will never make it. His choices are:

1) Continue to sprint off the field knowing the LBF for IS will give the offense their choice of 5 yards or the result of the play.

or

2) Line up in player position and let the DBF for IS be called insuring the offense is only entitled to the 5 yards.

Granted there is a risk with #2 that the IS won't be called but the IP would, but it is strange how if a player is trying to get off the field but fails, his team suffers more, because the offense has the choice to take the play or repeat the down + 5 yards but if he stays in a player position it is a DBF which should be blown before the snap and the offense can only take the 5 yards.

I like the mechanic of helping the kid out. If a kid is sprinting towards my sideline, and I'm not crowded by receivers, I'll walk towards the ball slowly to let the kid get behind me. If he's behind me at the snap, he gets away with it. We are there to make the game safe and fair--not to be the legal eagles of football.

But I'm interested in the mechanics for an IP. Say on 4th and 3 B thinks A is punting and subs in the punt return team. When B realizes A isn't going to punt tries to sub back in the regular defense. During the mass substitution BJ, LJ and HL fail to get a count. A fails to reach the line to gain. After the play is over, the HL counts 12 on the field (all participated). I say HL throws the flag for IP.

How would you do the mechanics on this one? Blow the play dead before the snap and make sure there aren't more than 11? Flag immediately then wave it off if the count is ok? Or just wait to get an accurate count before doing anything?

Safety and fairness are an issue here. IP can be painful--but I don't think any reasonable coach would argue with a late flag for 12 on the field.

I just got the tape of the play.

Player B12 sprinted more than half way onto the field (after the 13th player left which was not on tape). Then B12 realized that he was not supposed to be on the field and left the field. The A team QB was under center before he got to the middle of the formation. Then B12 runs off the field where I blew the whistle before the player reached the hash marks.

Yes B12 was leaving the field, but the snap was very imminent. This also was a LB that was not very fast. He likely would have never got to the sideline before the snap.

Comments?

Peace

A replaced player should be leaving within 3-5 seconds after the substitute comes in. If you apply this equally to A and B then I think it pretty much takes care of itself. That rarely happens however and B usually gets a longer time to get a replaced player off the field. I had one play like this last Friday night. I should have flagged B for IS but just as I was finishing recounting B (to confirm they actually had one too many on the field) B's coach called a time out.

Needless to say, the Fed needs to tweak some language regarding IP and IS before next year.

Well my crew has been getting some weird info lately but in this situation I would be more likely to let this one go as a LBF. The player was trying to get off and while running was not in the formation anymore. He had realized his error and was trying to correct it. If you wait to flag this until the snap then there is no doubt as to whether he made it to the sideline or even the wing if the wing walked toward him some to help him be "off" of the field prior to the snap. If you let this go as LBF then if he does stop and participate then you also have him for that as he then made two mistakes on the play and his coach will really get him.

REPLY: I think we all realize that a key point is how long were B12 and B13 on the field--not attempting to leave--after their substitutes reported into the huddle/formation. If it was more than a few seconds, it's a DBF for illegal sustitution. If B12 started toward his sideline as soon as he knew he was replaced, let him go. If he gets there before the snap, no problem. If he's still on the field, but heading toward his team box when the snap occurs, it's an illegal substitution simultaneous with the snap. The problem child is B13. He's confused as to whether he belongs out there or not. If he's been on the field for more than a few seconds, I'm killing it. We're not responsible for his confusion. Likewise, if the snap is imminent and B13 hasn't decided if he's "fish or fowl" I'm going to blow it dead. But if he's moving toward the sideline, I'll hold the whistle and at worst we'll have a live-ball IS foul simultaneous with the snap.

I've heard some of the more experienced members of my association say that you should blow it dead before the snap and penalize for IS instead of IP. However, given the opportunity to discuss the actual rules with them, I've been able to convince them that you CAN and SHOULD allow for the possibility of a live ball IS, if the kid is not participating (ie leaving the field).

I have always felt it unfair that the defense is susceptible to a 15 yard IP penalty, when the offense (barring a kid running on the field after the snap) is only going to get the 5 yard IS. But the rules as written don't support blowing a whistle for IS at the snap on the defense.

And put it another way... if you do blow it dead at the snap, then you are violating a basic tenet of the rules, and allowing the beginning of the play (the snapping of the ball) to cause a penalty which stops the play. That's just wrong.

It is obvious everyone does not agree.
 

The prevailing philosophy around here is to shut it down. The main reason to shut it down is there is too many things can take place if you let the play go. If you let the play go, you might have an IP foul. Giving a 5 yard penalty is not as costly as giving a 15 yard penalty any day. So I would rather shut it down (which I did) and not worry about it after that (which I did not). If you have to go through all the rules to find a single situation to keep the ball alive, that in by itself is not a good reason to let the play go. The bottom line is this play was a cluster f@@k. The defense was thoroughly confused and I got the chance to see the tape.

There are many more case plays that support this being a DBF.

Peace