Could I get some of you officials to rule on a play

[waltjp]

Was it this thread or another one? Ramtime posted 4 different threads.

[MJT]

I am 99.9% sure it was this one. There were about 6 posts in between mine yesterday morning, and Mike's this morning. I recognized it right away. Maybe I'm losing it! My wife says that to me all the time.

Did anyone else notice it???

[RamTime]

Originally posted by MJT
Ok, here is the new rule change regarding the pocket area for 2005. Rule 3-24, definition of pocket area states, "The pocket area applies from the normal tackle position on each side of the center and extends backwards to the offensive team's own end line." It continutes to state as the effect of this rule change "There will be one definition of the pocket area for every play that covers intentional grounding, illegal contact, and an illegal cut block."

The rule book I have states
3-24
SECTION 24


POCKET AREA
The Pocket Area applies from the normal tight-end position on each side of the center and extends backwards to the offensive team's own goal line.

Could this be an old rule book that I have? It was downloaded so no date is apparent. It seems ridiculous for the NFL digest of rules say something different then the official rule book? One would think that they would realize the different interpretations someone could have especially us fans.
We have (The normal tackle positions - which is what television commentators always refer to)
We have (2 yards outside the normal tackle positions)
We have (2 yards outside the normal tackle positions and includes the tight end if he drops off the line to pass protect)

As I said before that is like each umpire having his own strike zone when there are rules that govern the strike zone. Notwithstanding the 2005 rule to make it specific was/is the rule here?

[MJT]

Originally posted by RamTime

The rule book I have states
3-24
SECTION 24


POCKET AREA
The Pocket Area applies from the normal tight-end position on each side of the center and extends backwards to the offensive team's own goal line.

Could this be an old rule book that I have? It was downloaded so no date is apparent. It seems ridiculous for the NFL digest of rules say something different then the official rule book? One would think that they would realize the different interpretations someone could have especially us fans.
We have (The normal tackle positions - which is what television commentators always refer to)
We have (2 yards outside the normal tackle positions)
We have (2 yards outside the normal tackle positions and includes the tight end if he drops off the line to pass protect)

As I said before that is like each umpire having his own strike zone when there are rules that govern the strike zone. Notwithstanding the 2005 rule to make it specific was/is the rule here?

RamTime, if you read my post on page 2, you would see where I said that the pocket area for IG is not the same as the pocket area definition. However, to clearify and make the pocket area consistant in all areas, they made a rule change for 2005. When your SB was played, the pocket area definition was a you stated, but for IG it was still getting "outside the tackle."

Here is what I said on page 2.

RamTime, if you remember, I said I had the "official" NFL rules from a current NFL official. That is the 2004 rule book, and it states ""POCKET AREA - The Pocket Area applies from the normal tight-end position on each side of the center and extends backwards to the offensive team's own goal line." What I stated late last night was the NEW RULE CHANGES FOR 2005 which says "Rule 3-24, definition of pocket area states, "The pocket area applies from the normal tackle position on each side of the center and extends backwards to the offensive team's own end line." It continutes to state as the effect of this rule change "There will be one definition of the pocket area for every play that covers intentional grounding, illegal contact, and an illegal cut block."

The last part of the above paragraph state that the NEW pocket definition will be used any time the "pocket" is referenced in a rule. Now even though the pocket area was different last year than this year, in the section of intentional grounding for last year "rule 8-3-1 stated that for IG the pocket was from tackle to tackle. So when you state TE to TE above, that is the defn of pocket area, but for IG purposoes in 8-3-1-note #1 is says "outside the tackle," NOT outside the "pocket area." This should clarify where the QB must be to not have IG and how that is different than the defined pocket area for this upcoming 2005 season. With the new rule change, there will be no confusion.

The part that I think you are missing RamTime, that we as officials are stating is; IF we feel the receiver broke the route the wrong way, and that is why the pass did not have a realistic chance of being caught, then we do NOT have intentional grounding.

I looked at the 2nd clip over and over, and if you stop it at different points I think it shows some interesting things. If you look at when Brady started to lift his arm to throw the pass the receiver is at the 49 yard line, and if you stop it at the very end of the play, you will see that the ball ends up on the sideline at that yardline. It looks to me that if the receiver would have broke off his receiver on an "out route" it would have been perfectly timed, and probably completed. Those are factors that the crew discusses when they all get together to see if a foul really did, or did not occur. The NFL officials get together to make sure someone did not have a better view or better angle than any other level of officials.

I know fans often feel that the officials all getting together as being unsure, but they are just making sure they get it right, which they do OVER 99% of the time, and that is a number that is statistically correct based on the "grading" of "each NFL official on each play."

Now will they make mistakes, yes, we all do, but over 99% is pretty damn good!!! I, for one, can handle this less than 1% being wrong, even when it effects my favorite team.

[James Neil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJT
[B]

Originally posted by RamTime

I know fans often feel that the officials all getting together as being unsure, but they are just making sure they get it right, which they do OVER 99% of the time, and that is a number that is statistically correct based on the "grading" of "each NFL official on each play."

Now will they make mistakes, yes, we all do, but over 99% is pretty damn good!!! I, for one, can handle this less than 1% being wrong, even when it effects my favorite team.

Great Post MJT . But I’ll lay odds that it’s a waist of time trying to reason with this guy.

[RamTime]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by James Neil
[B]

Originally posted by MJT

Great Post MJT . But I’ll lay odds that it’s a waist of time trying to reason with this guy.

Thank you so very much. There is an sound explanation after all. Thank you.

[MJT]

Originally posted by RamTime
QUOTE]
Thank you so very much. There is an sound explanation after all. Thank you. [/B]

Well RamTime, you have showed you can be reasoned with... but I still think you are looking at the Rams games with Blue and Gold glasses.

Take Care,

MJT

[Dommer1]

In your quest for wisdom and enlightenment (which I do applaud you for), there is something you must keep in mind when studying the rule book:

There are rules, and then you have the application and interpretation of said rules.

You will N O T find all the answer to what should be called and not called in the rule book. When you start out as an official, this is one of the hardest things to get a grasp of. What do you call, and what is not worth calling? The NFL wants those rules to be interpreted and applied a certain way, and this is communicated to the officials at clinics, meetings, bulletins, through video tape and through the grading process. As a fan, you are not privy to these things.

Officials outside the NFL don't get this info either (at least it's very limited), but we have an understanding of how these things work and we understand that the rules as written and the rules in practice are two very different things.

Good luck with your studying. And when you do ask a question, please be prepared for getting an aswer that is not what you thought/hoped. Too often people ask questions, just so they can claim that they are trying to learn, but they are not interestid in learning from the answers they get.

[mcrowder]

Can we get away from the pocket discussion? I don't think that's relevant here. I believe this was not IG because when Brady threw it, he threw it to where he thought a receiver would be, and to a place where there would be a "reasonable chance for the ball to be caught."

I think Ram is being to strict with this part of the definition. If taken by just the words, anytime Quincy Carter throws a pass, it's IG, as it doesn't have a reasonable chance of being caught.

[waltjp]

Originally posted by mcrowder
If taken by just the words, anytime Quincy Carter throws a pass, it's IG, as it doesn't have a reasonable chance of being caught.

Anyone want to know what funny is? This is funny!

[RamTime]

If taken by just the words, anytime Quincy Carter throws a pass, it's IG, as it doesn't have a reasonable chance of being caught.

Thanks I just spit coffee all over myself.

I have a feeling this is going to be one of those questions that are not well defined like I.G. however I honestly do not understand what an illegeal pick is other then it has something to do with receivers crossing close enough to one another to where it its underlying purpose is to either make the DB's colide or some how fool them so that two or more defenders will cover the same receiver leaving another receiver wide open. Any help on this? also I have not found it in the rule book so if you can give the #-#-# I would appreciate it.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by RamTime

Thanks I just spit coffee all over myself.

I have a feeling this is going to be one of those questions that are not well defined like I.G. however I honestly do not understand what an illegeal pick is other then it has something to do with receivers crossing close enough to one another to where it its underlying purpose is to either make the DB's colide or some how fool them so that two or more defenders will cover the same receiver leaving another receiver wide open. Any help on this? also I have not found it in the rule book so if you can give the #-#-# I would appreciate it.

The words, "illegal pick" do not appear in the rulebook. That is an announcer's term. I don't believe the proximity of the offensive players has any bearing on this. I belive this falls under rule Rule 8-2-5-Offensive Pass Interference-a thru c.

Actions that constitute offensive PI include but are not limited to:

a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched.

b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving him or pushing off thus creating separation in an attempt to catch the pass.

c) Driving through a defender who has gained position on the field.




Usually, I see this called when an outside receiver runs a route inside and an inside receiver runs a route outside. The guy going inside obviously blocks for the guy going outside.

[MJT]

Originally posted by RamTime

Thanks I just spit coffee all over myself.

I have a feeling this is going to be one of those questions that are not well defined like I.G. however I honestly do not understand what an illegeal pick is other then it has something to do with receivers crossing close enough to one another to where it its underlying purpose is to either make the DB's colide or some how fool them so that two or more defenders will cover the same receiver leaving another receiver wide open. Any help on this? also I have not found it in the rule book so if you can give the #-#-# I would appreciate it.

What you are calling "illegal pick" is going to be an offensive pass interference call. These pick plays are very common inside the 5 yard line.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Regarding an illegal pick (OPI), this is another place where it's absolutely essential to see the entire play. For this to be called properly, the offensive receiver will be most likely be 'hunting' for the defensive back. He will have the d-back in his sights off the line rather than looking back toward the QB. That's why staying on your keys a little longer is incredibly important in the red zone. Too often, you'll see the defender get knocked on his rear, but fail to see the action that preceded it. And you feel the irresistible urge to drop the hankie. It's entirely possible that the offensive receiver was running a legitimate route looking for the ball and just collided with the defender in nothing more than incidental contact--no foul. You need to watch the offensive receiver come off the line and see his intent. Usually, when a pick (OPI) is called for, you'll see the receiver altering his 'route' to make sure that he contacts the defender. Two other things to remember: (1) there's got to be contact for this to be called. If the defender sees it coming and stops, or alters his path, to avoid the contact, it's NOT a pick and there is no foul, and (2) unless a legal forward pass is thrown beyond the neutral zone, it can't be OPI.

[RamTime]

So you can not have an illegal pick without contact? Would pushing off be considered an illegal pick?

I am not asking for any purpose other then I simply do not know.