Stump the Chump

[ljudge]

Yes, Bob I meant a free kick following a safety. On tests in the past we have always said "7 situations" so I happened to memorize the list which is 4.3.6 and the replay is 4.3.7. They list safety separate saying "following a safety." They used the work kickoff instead of free kick in the rules.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by MJT
Ok, now that I understand the question for #2 it makes sense.

So do we have 4? KOOB's, FM 5yd or 15, roughing/running into kicker, and DPI - and an extra 15 for intentional.

Are those what you were looking for Mike?

Yep. Didn't think about a free kick OOB.

[MJT]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snake~eyes
[B]

Originally posted by MJT

MJT,

think about it, it must be a USC, if it were a personal foul then we couldn't mark it off anyways. Also the second argument that could be made is that the USC is for the intent while the PI is for the contact.

That's my reasoning atleast.

True, but the second arguement of the intent and not the contact doesn't make a lot of sense. I see your point, and they must be going with that to get the other 15 yards, but where else is a contact foul considered USC. Your point on intent must be their "intent" but does not follow their normal rational. Would you agree?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by mikesears

I edited my post. Thanks. My original post was confusing

You'll have to forgive me - I've been teaching high school English this summer, and my inner grammarian is showing.

[kdf5]

Originally posted by MJT

I don't mean to be picky here but the additional 15 yds for an intentional PI is signalled as an USC, if I remember right, and it's really not a choice to be enforced or not, it's enforced if the covering official says it was intentional. Correct me if I'm wrong. [/B]

According to the rule book, the extra 15 yards for intentional DPI is signal 27, which is USC. Now I don't quite understand that one, cuz USC is a non contact foul, so I agree it should be signal 38 which is PF, but for some reason that is not the signal given in the book.

That being said, has ANYONE ever called it, or even seen it???? [/B][/QUOTE]

We had the chance years ago. The DB creamed the receiver well before the ball got there. We didn't call it.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: There's some discussion about there being two penalty yardage choices for free kicks OOB. I respectfully disagree. The only penalty yardage option for a free kick OOB is 5 yards from previous spot and re-kick. Offering the ball to R 25 yards in advance of K's free-kick line is not an award of penalty yardage; it's simply another means by which R can choose to dispose of the foul. Think about it...
(1) the only place you 'measure' from is K's free kick line; therefore yardage would appear to be enforced against team R.
(2) what if by some chance (maybe after a FC) K was free kicking from R's 30 and they kick it OOB. Do you only go half the distance to R's 15? No...the only way you can enforce this choice is to give R the ball at his 5 (which he'll never take). Distance penalties are always subject to the half the distance limitation in Fed ball.
No, this isn't an award of penalty yardage, but simply an optional place for R to begin their series.

[ljudge]

I have always thought of this as penalty yardage until I read an article 3 years ago outlining the situation where the Free Kick wasn't made from the normal 40-yard line and it stated that 1/2 the distance wasn't an option because it wasn't technically a penalty.

But forget that, under the football fundamentals page it (page 71 of 2004 rules book) says "Penalties are either 5, 10 or 15 yards." If this were truly a penalty enforcement they would have added 25 yards to the list.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by ljudge
...But forget that, under the football fundamentals page it (page 71 of 2004 rules book) says "Penalties are either 5, 10 or 15 yards." If this were truly a penalty enforcement they would have added 25 yards to the list.

REPLY: And even then, you would need to be willing to accept the idea of penalty yardage being enforced against the offended team!!

[PSU213]

I only weight in on the kick out of bounds issue to play devil's advocate. 2-16-5 defines a penalty as "a result against a team or team member that has committed a foul." Also, the 25 yard option is listed under "Penatly" after the rule.

All that being said, I don't think (?) that the "is this a penalty?" question is really more than another discussion for us to have (which is definitely not a bad thing if it gets people in the Rule Book), and it really does not have a direct impact on our games.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: PSU213...I agree with you that the 25-yd. option is indeed a penalty. I just don't think of it as an award of penalty yardage. Same as an awarded fair catch following KCI. It's a penalty (consequence) of the foul, but it's not an award of yardage. That's the way I view the 25-yd. option following a free kick OOB.

NFHS Responses

1. Other than during a try, this is the only time a live ball foul can occur and the clock will not start. Can you name it?

First touching by K on a free kick in the netrual zone.

2. Name three events that are fouls where you have a choice of distance penalties.

Free Kick OOB (untouched by R).

3. List the times when Team A can request where they want the ball positioned between the hashes.

For a try or kick-off; following a safety or touchback; start of each overtime series; after a FC or awarded FC

4. Name a circumstance where the ball is free kicked from some other place but the A-40 and no foul or a safety is involved in the movement of the ball.

not understanding this one?

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: There's some discussion about there being two penalty yardage choices for free kicks OOB. I respectfully disagree. The only penalty yardage option for a free kick OOB is 5 yards from previous spot and re-kick. Offering the ball to R 25 yards in advance of K's free-kick line is not an award of penalty yardage; it's simply another means by which R can choose to dispose of the foul. Think about it...
(1) the only place you 'measure' from is K's free kick line; therefore yardage would appear to be enforced against team R.
(2) what if by some chance (maybe after a FC) K was free kicking from R's 30 and they kick it OOB. Do you only go half the distance to R's 15? No...the only way you can enforce this choice is to give R the ball at his 5 (which he'll never take). Distance penalties are always subject to the half the distance limitation in Fed ball.
No, this isn't an award of penalty yardage, but simply an optional place for R to begin their series.

Bob, if they kicked OOBs from the R20 then that option wouldn't be a choice?

[Edited by tpaul on Jul 7th, 2005 at 02:10 PM]

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally posted by tpaul
NFHS Responses

1. Other than during a try, this is the only time a live ball foul can occur and the clock will not start. Can you name it?

First touching by K on a free kick in the netrual zone.

First touching isn't a foul. It has consequences, but no flags come out for first touching.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by tpaul


Bob, if they kicked OOBs from the R20 then that option wouldn't be a choice?

REPLY: Correct. Their only choices would be (1) take the ball at the inbounds spot on the yardline where the kick went OOB, or (2) penalize K 5 yards and replay the free kick down. [Note: If the kick did come from R's 20, probably not a real choice involved. The ball probably went OOB inside R's 10 (or eevn R's 5).

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Correct. Their only choices would be (1) take the ball at the inbounds spot on the yardline where the kick went OOB, or (2) penalize K 5 yards and replay the free kick down. [Note: If the kick did come from R's 20, probably not a real choice involved. The ball probably went OOB inside R's 10 (or eevn R's 5).

Bob, I understand but we are always just "testing" the rules. It's just like those rulings you read and say that could never happen but it must have if it is a rule