3/9 at A-20. A2 is running a "comeback" pattern. A1 throws the ball toward A2. A2 jumps at the A-32, clasps the ball in his hands at the A-31, and is then contacted by B1 at the A-30. A2 lands at the A-28 and is downed at the A-26.

Where do you spot the ball?

Great question. The way I have seen this described if the ball had been in the receivers hands while over the end zone it was to ruled a touchdown. So all things being equal I'm saying spot at the 31. With a comeback route this is leaving doubt in my mind. What do others think?

REPLY: If he lands on his feet at A's 28 under his own control, it's still a live ball. The fact that he's then tackled at A's 26 is interesting, but I don't think it materially affects how you will rule this play. He could just as easily have landed at the 28 (on his feet) and continued downfield for a TD! You would not want to have blown that one dead. ljudge is correct that the goal line adds a different element to the play, one in which the Federation has seen fit to kill the play and award the score. But if memory serves me correctly, ljudge's play over the endzone would continue to be a live ball in NCAA play. Am I right, TxMike??

An AR exists that is similar to this play for NCAA: Airbore A1 receives a legal forward pass one yard within the endzone. As A1 receives the ball, he is contacted by B1 and first comes to the ground with the catch at the one yard line where the ball is declared dead. Ruling: Touchdown

Under NCAA he still has to complete the catch by rule and the ball has to become dead by rule. At that point he then given the forward progress that was in the end zone. The contact in the end zone doesn't make the ball dead.
This rule applies regardless if it's at midfield or the end zone. If after the contact he isn't tackled then the ball is still live.

Let me clarify this a little.

I just read a case play and now I'm thinking the 28. In my former post I was incorrect in ruling TD from what I can see in the official case play. I believe I'm incorrect because the momentum of the A player. (not to be confused with the momentum rule). If the A player had been over the endzone and pushed back into the field of play and hitting the ground there, then ONLY then it could be ruled a TD.

Case 2.15.1

It is 1st and 10 for A at B's 12 yard line. A1 sprints near the endline and buttonhooks. He jumps and possesses a fwd pass while in the air above the endzone. (a) A1's momentum carries him back into the field of play and he lands and is downed on the 1-yard line; or (b) while in the air in the end zone, he is contacted by B1 and he then lands and is downed on the B's 2-yard line.

Ruling: In (a) it's A's ball 1st and Goal at the 1. In (b) it's a TD if the covering official judges the contact by B1 is the cause of A1 coming down at the 2 yard line.

So in Mike's play, I'm assuming it was the momentum of the player's movement in the comeback route and the reason A came down at the 28 was because he ran that kind of route. His catch was completed at the 28 and any kind of progress toward B's goal line would have ended there. JUST a guess but that's what I'm thinking now that I have read this case play.

My vote is the A-30. A2 caught the ball at the 32, but in order to do so, he risked loosing yardage by the route the offense chose to execute. B contacting A2 establishes forward progress. A2 lands at the 28 not by his own accord. Had he then tried to move from the 28, FP would be that 28 and so forth as A2 moved.

Originally posted by mikesears

"3/9 at A-20. A2 is running a "comeback" pattern. A1 throws the ball toward A2. A2 jumps at the A-32, clasps the ball in his hands at the A-31, and is then wrapped up by B1 at the A-30. A2 lands at the A-28 and is finally dragged down at the A-26.

Where do you spot the ball?"

A’s ball 1/10 at A’s 30. A2’s forward progress stopped when B1 wrapped him up at the 30 yardline. If B1 had not wrapped up A2 then his forward progress spot would be at the A-28

Dale Smith

I'd spot it at A's 30. This is where he was contacted by B1. A2 completes the pass by coming down in bounds at the A28.

I agree I would say the 30..

(NFHS) I believe the ball should be marked at A's 28. The pass was not complete until the A player contacted the grounds inbounds. In this case, the contact by B has no bearing on this happening so the contact should be ignored while the A player is still in the air. Once he is driven back and the play is dead I believe forward progress is awarded to the original spot of the completed pass which would be A's 28.

The contact by the B player is only significant if the A player had not made contact with the ground inbounds.

My vote would be the 30. I think it is different if he IS, or IS NOT contacted at the 30. If he IS not contacted at the 30, the he is down at the 28 and that is where the ball is spotted, but since he WAS contacted, the defense has now establed that as the spot the ball will come back to, unless the ballcarrier breaks free, then we are back to square one.

REPLY: I agree with most...A's 30.

Interesting discussion on McGriff's board that I had heard once before. Elvis (NCAA) posted that he had asked Adams, the NCAA Rules Editor, about forward progress in general. Adams offered that forward progress is only applicable if the runner is moving forward. Consider: 1st & 10 on A's 20. QB A11 retreats from the neutral zone (toward his goal line) while looking for a receiver. Under pressure and unable to throw a pass, he is still retreating at A's 5 where he is pushed by B77, causing him to stumble and fall into A's end zone. The ball is in his possession and behind A's goal line when his knee touches the ground. RULING (Adams): Safety. Since the QB was moving backward, a consideration of forward progress is immaterial. In fact, Adams added that if the QB were standing still when contacted, the ruling would be the same—safety. Everyone pretty much agreed that no one calls it like this. Everyone gives the ball to A at A's 2 where B's contact first occurred. A Big-12 referee offered a good benchmark: when the runner loses his feet and no longer has the ability to drive ahead for more yardage, that's when the ball is dead.

Bob M,
very interesting thought....I never looked at it that way!

Assuming the receiver is contacted by B as mentioned... and the ball comes loose before A touches the ground. Is this an incomplete pass or a fumble???

I ask this because my logic is as follows... if you rule fumble, then spot the ball in the original question at the 30 (player A had made a catch and lost possession). If the ruling becomes an incomplete pass, then the mark would be at the 28 (player A never made a legal catch until he hit the ground).

If it’s an incomplete pass spot the ball at the previous spot, the A-20

Yesterday the summer issue of Offical's Quarterly from the Fed arrived in my mailbox and in it is an article dealing with forward progress. The article deals with runners, forward progress at the pylon and also recievers.

"The same principles apply when a reciever jumps in the air, catches the ball, and before returning to the ground, is stacked up by the defense and driven backward. Provided he made a catch by rule, his progress is marked at that forward spot of advancement before he was driven back.

So is the writer saying he should get the 31 where he grasped the ball or the 30 where he was wrapped up?

My first thought when I read it was to mark the ball at the 30, but after reading some of the replies, I question whether it should be marked at the 28. Need to look that one up tonite.

As for the second question posed, incomplete pass, as he did not complete the catch by touching the ground inbounds.

I realize if the pass is incomplete it would be spotted at the previous spot. I posed the question because to me, it relates directly as to where you spot the ball in the first scenario.

If we rule the pass to be incomplete, it is because there is no "catch" (by rule) on the play originally described until the receiver makes contact with the ground.

If there is no catch until he contacts the ground in the case of the incomplete pass.... it must also be ruled that there is no catch (in the original scenario) until the receiver touches the ground (A's 28 yard line).

Conversely, in the question I asked... if you rule a fumble, it is because it has been ruled that a legal "catch" has been made before the receiver touches the ground (which is not what is written in rule #2) and therefore in the original scenario, it would be logical to mark the ball at A's 30.

It's definitely not a catch until he touches the ground and I think we're all pretty much on board with that. We had an all-NCAA crew work a high school game and the crew was berated by the coach (which I heard got him a suspension) that had to do with the definition of a catch. The A player went in the air, completely possessed the ball, then was hit while still airborne, the ball popped out, then the football subsequently hit the ground. A member of team B picked up the ball (right in front of B's bench) and started to advance what he tought was a fumble. The LJ quickly blew the whistle and ruled incomplete pass. The bench went nuts from what I heard. The play was discussed at our weekly chapter assembly and we were told the crew got the call correct. So, with the case we have before us I'm sticking to the 28 because that's where the catch was completed. If the player had been moving forward I may have ruled differently.

However, here's part of the definition of forward progress:

Art. 2 . . . When an airborne player makes a catch, forward progress is the furthest point of advancement after he possesses the ball if contacted by a defender.

I think this makes a case for spotting the ball at the 30.

Rule #2...

"A catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight and first contacting the ground inbounds or being contacted by an opponent in such a way that he is prevented from returning to the grounds inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball."

The only time forward progress would apply to the receiver being airborne would be when the receiver is unable to first touch the grounds inbounds. If the A player was first contacted at the 30 and was driven out of bounds at the 28, then the ball would be spotted at the 30. In the original scenarion though, the ball should be marked at the 28, the spot where the play became a legal catch.

The catch must preceed forward progress.

[Edited by texoma_lj on May 14th, 2005 at 10:43 AM]

The NFHS Rules Study Guide (by Demetriou and Redding), gives example 5-19 on page 34.

Second and 10 on Team A's 30 yard line. A7 passes forward to A84 who fish hooks and dives backwards grabbing the ball at his 45 yard line. B23 makes contact at the 44 yard line and A84 lands at his 43 yard line. RULING: The ball is spotted where A84 was contacted, the 44 yard line.

While this isn't the exact play that Mike Sears presented, it does have the same general components: A receiver is coming back towards the passer, gains possession of the ball, is contacted by the defender, and then completes the catch by returning to the ground.

Demetriou and Redding go on to say that, "Once awarded a catch, forward progress is marked at the point where the receiver is contacted or pushed forward. The spot where the receiver would have landed is not the forward progress spot."

It appears to me that he's given his forward progress provided he makes the catch.

It appears so...
might be good to rewrite rule #2 to clarify this point.

Gentlemen, the term is forward progress. Where would he be without the contact?
If the contact stops the forward progress award the yardage. In this case it dosen't Why would we give the receiver extra yardage that he hasn't earned?
Now you may decide that he would come down somewhere between the 28 & 30. Give him that if you will, but unless you think he can stop in mid air when he is moving in any direction the spot where the contact is made is not a hard spot.
Take the same pass at the sideline where the receiver lands OB. The rules on a catch require that the receiver would have returned inbounds if the contact had not occured. The mere fact that there was contact does NOT take away this requirement. So if we were to award forward progress in the middle of the field, we would also do so at the sideline. And this is demonstrably not so.

The term "hard spot" is new to me. What is the definition of a "hard spot?"
Are you saying that the ball should be spotted at the 28?