STC on simultaneous possession Q

[kentref]

NFHS rules. 2nd and 8 on A's 40 yard line. A12 throws a short pass over the middle and both A84 and B59 leap for the pass and appear to possess the ball at the same time while in the air. They both contact the ground with their feet at the same time on A's 49 yard line while still in apparent joint possession of the ball. The linesman recognizes the joint possession and sounds his whistle when the players contact the ground. At the time of the whistle both players are on their feet and moving towards B's end zone. The umpire, who was much closer to the play, indicates that B59 (only) had possession. The referee goes with the umpire's call.

Question: What is the next down, who is in possession, and where would the ball be spotted? Indicate if there is more than one potential outcome.

[Bob Mc]

B 1st and 10 at A's 49. B does have an option of replaying the down on the inadvertent whistle, but more than likely would accept the results of the play. Tough decision for B..."Captian, you can either have the ball here or give it back to A and let them replay 2nd down."

Is there also a lesson on communication with your fellow officials somewhere in your question?

[MJT]

Originally posted by kentref
NFHS rules. 2nd and 8 on A's 40 yard line. A12 throws a short pass over the middle and both A84 and B59 leap for the pass and appear to possess the ball at the same time while in the air. They both contact the ground with their feet at the same time on A's 49 yard line while still in apparent joint possession of the ball. The linesman recognizes the joint possession and sounds his whistle when the players contact the ground. At the time of the whistle both players are on their feet and moving towards B's end zone. The umpire, who was much closer to the play, indicates that B59 (only) had possession. The referee goes with the umpire's call.

Question: What is the next down, who is in possession, and where would the ball be spotted? Indicate if there is more than one potential outcome.

I agree with Bob MC, but as the R, I would make sure I got the U and the L together to discuss it.

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by kentref
NFHS rules. 2nd and 8 on A's 40 yard line. A12 throws a short pass over the middle and both A84 and B59 leap for the pass and appear to possess the ball at the same time while in the air. They both contact the ground with their feet at the same time on A's 49 yard line while still in apparent joint possession of the ball. The linesman recognizes the joint possession and sounds his whistle when the players contact the ground. At the time of the whistle both players are on their feet and moving towards B's end zone. The umpire, who was much closer to the play, indicates that B59 (only) had possession. The referee goes with the umpire's call.

Question: What is the next down, who is in possession, and where would the ball be spotted? Indicate if there is more than one potential outcome.

Wow I really cannot see that happening as U, I am busy watching the line and to any extent would defer to the wing. Only way it would be different is if the U was the only one able to see directly into it, ie the pass was caught between the line and him and they turned so he could see the hands, which puts the players backs to the wings more. At that point as well I would be confirming with the back judge as he would have about the same look as the U. I would also somewhat consider calling it an IW on a pass play and replay the down if we could not come to an acceptable resolve on the catch. To have a catch you have to have control and you have crew members questioning who had control which could be looked at as the ball still being loose in a sense. To any extent to have a turnover there when you have crew members in doubt in not a good thing.

Really I would have to know exactly where "over the middle" the catch was being made and the angle of the officials to the play and players to fairly decide on what the "more correct" call would be.

[kentref]

This play happened in a youth game with a 3 man crew. I probably should have added that in at the start, but I am more interested in what the linesman should have done in this situation, (regardless of the crew size).

For this type of play does it make any sense for the linesman (who sees joint possession), to drop a beanbag at the yardline where he sees the joint possession? He then continues to officiate and confers with the umpire when the play's over. Let's say that's what happened, and after the linesman and umpire confer, they decide it was joint possession. You move the ball back to yardline marked by the beanbag and it remains A's ball. Now, do you put time back on the clock?

Note: I don't like to see the umpire determining when the play's over (i.e., determining that forward progress was stopped), and that's pretty much what I'm conceding in the previous paragraph. However, in this situation, if it's the linesman that eventually blows his whistle (after he's dropped his beanbag earlier), that just seems awkward, since he should have stopped the play at the joint possession spot. Thoughts?

[MJT]

Originally posted by kentref
This play happened in a youth game with a 3 man crew. I probably should have added that in at the start, but I am more interested in what the linesman should have done in this situation, (regardless of the crew size).

For this type of play does it make any sense for the linesman (who sees joint possession), to drop a beanbag at the yardline where he sees the joint possession? He then continues to officiate and confers with the umpire when the play's over. Let's say that's what happened, and after the linesman and umpire confer, they decide it was joint possession. You move the ball back to yardline marked by the beanbag and it remains A's ball. Now, do you put time back on the clock?

Note: I don't like to see the umpire determining when the play's over (i.e., determining that forward progress was stopped), and that's pretty much what I'm conceding in the previous paragraph. However, in this situation, if it's the linesman that eventually blows his whistle (after he's dropped his beanbag earlier), that just seems awkward, since he should have stopped the play at the joint possession spot. Thoughts?

First of all, Cowbyfan 1, the U should turn and pivot with he pass, so there is a good chance he would see the play.

If any official sees joint possession, as you stated, he must blow his whistle and stop the play. By rule 4-1-3l in NCAA or 4-2e1 in NF, the ball becomes dead when it is simultaneously caught or recovered by opposing players. This is a judgement call, but if the lineman drops a bean bag and continues to officiate and then after the play discusses it with the U and they say bring the ball back to the beanbag, you are going to have some problems explaining that one.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Well, as several senior officials keep telling me: Either you saw it or you didn't. If you have positive, definite knowledge of joint possession, blow the whistle. If not, don't.

The linesman and the umpire need to tell each other what they saw. They should be able to work it out on their own. If they agree the umpire had the better view, then B's ball 1st and 10 at that spot.