Stump the chump - 3-3

[MJT]

1. K has the ball 4th and 15 on the 50 punting the ball away. The punt lands on R's 15 and is slowly rolling at the 2 yard line when R1 runs and bats the ball through R's endzone and out of bounds.

2. 4th - 12 from K's 35. K punts to R's 40 where R31 signals a fair catch. Just prior to gaining possession, K15 commits a PF at K49 then after the ball is blown dead at R's 40, R31 commits a PF. What is the proper penalty enforcement? One live ball PF and one dead ball PF.

3. The score is B-21 A-15. 4th and 4 on A 20 yard line. Ball is snapped to A1 who pitches it to A2. A2 never gets control and the ball is on the ground at the A-15 yard line. A2 sees he will not recover and intentionally kicks the ball hard downfield and it goes out of bounds at the A-30 yard line.

[Mike Simonds]

I'll take number one.

NF rules:
If K accepts R's foul: its a loose ball foul for illegal batting. Enforce 15 yards from previous spot. 1st and 10 for K on R's 35 yard line.
If K declines R's foul: its a touchback. R's ball 1st and 10 at R's 20 yard line.

[Mike Simonds]

My bad. PSK would apply.

R's foul for illegal batting would be penalized from R's 20 yard line, half the distance to R's goal because the end of the kick results in a touchback.

R's ball 1st and 10 at R's 10 yard line.

Sorry guys.

[Mike Simonds]

I just realized the spot of R's foul is behind the basic spot.

R's ball 1st and 10 at R's 1 yard line.

I promise this is my last mistake. LOL. Yeah, right...

[kdf5]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
I just realized the spot of R's foul is behind the basic spot.

R's ball 1st and 10 at R's 1 yard line.

I promise this is my last mistake. LOL. Yeah, right...

I'll bet your brain is scrambled from being on the beach and soaking up rays in all that nice weather

[KWH]

2. 4th - 12 from K's 35. K punts to R's 40 where R31 signals a fair catch. Just prior to gaining possession, K15 commits a PF at K49 then after the ball is blown dead at R's 40, R31 commits a PF. What is the proper penalty enforcement? One live ball PF and one dead ball PF.

Two options for R:
1) R may decline the K (live ball) foul in order to retain possession the football. Hence, if the K foul is declined, the R (dead ball) foul will be accepted making the game situation 1st and 10 for R at the R25.
OR,
2) R may accept the K (live ball) foul, (which should be walked off ***) however, the R (dead ball) foul will also be enforced, making the game situation 4th and 12 from K's 35. (Or a repeat of the previous play situation)
Note: *** While he result of the play appears to be an offset, live ball fouls are NEVER offset by dead ball fouls. Therefore, in this situation, for proper enforcment, both fouls should be walked off.



[Edited by KWH on Mar 3rd, 2005 at 03:54 PM]

[kdf5]

I'll take #3:

The illegal kick is treated as a fumble. If B declines, it's A 1/10 from A's 30. If B accepts, you have half the distance from the previous spot, A 4/14 from A's 10.

[KWH]

Originally posted by kdf5
I'll take #3:

The illegal kick is treated as a fumble. If B declines, it's A 1/10 from A's 30. If B accepts, you have half the distance from the previous spot, A 4/14 from A's 10.

Sorry kdf5, but-
If accepted, the illegal kick is enforced from the spot of the foul as per the all-but-one principle (loose ball play with foul behind the basic spot)
4th and 16.5 on the A7.5 yard line.

[kdf5]

Originally posted by KWH

Sorry kdf5, but-
If accepted, the illegal kick is enforced from the spot of the foul as per the all-but-one principle (loose ball play with foul behind the basic spot)
4th and 16.5 on the A7.5 yard line.

I knew I'd screw it up. Good catch.

[WVREF]

Variation on #2: Make it 4th and 5 from K's 5ydline. Then the liveball PF by K prior to possession followed by R's deadball PF. Both fouls occur at K's 40 and the ball is blown dead at K's 40 also. What explanation are you going to give to R's captain?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by MJT
1. K has the ball 4th and 15 on the 50 punting the ball away. The punt lands on R's 15 and is slowly rolling at the 2 yard line when R1 runs and bats the ball through R's endzone and out of bounds.

2. 4th - 12 from K's 35. K punts to R's 40 where R31 signals a fair catch. Just prior to gaining possession, K15 commits a PF at K49 then after the ball is blown dead at R's 40, R31 commits a PF. What is the proper penalty enforcement? One live ball PF and one dead ball PF.

3. The score is B-21 A-15. 4th and 4 on A 20 yard line. Ball is snapped to A1 who pitches it to A2. A2 never gets control and the ball is on the ground at the A-15 yard line. A2 sees he will not recover and intentionally kicks the ball hard downfield and it goes out of bounds at the A-30 yard line.

1. Safety.

2. Offsetting. R-1D/10 @ R-40.

3. B-1D/10 @ A-30.

[KWH]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
1. Safety.

2. Offsetting. R-1D/10 @ R-40.

3. B-1D/10 @ A-30. [/B]

While seafood and pasta may taste good together in Canadia,
in the US, live ball fouls and dead ball fouls are never put together to create a double (or offsetting) foul.

Additionally, I have to question your Canadian Officiting credentials since you gave rulings on 3 plays that all occured on 4th down!!!
Good day eh...

[KWH]

Originally posted by WVREF
Variation on #2: Make it 4th and 5 from K's 5ydline. Then the liveball PF by K prior to possession followed by R's deadball PF. Both fouls occur at K's 40 and the ball is blown dead at K's 40 also. What explanation are you going to give to R's captain?

Assuming that R made a fair catch on the K40, (you did not say), the R captain may;
a) decline the K foul,
b) have the dead ball foul against R enforced,
c) the game situation would then be 1st and 10 for R on the R45,
d) R may next put the ball in play by a snap or a free kick. If the free kick goes thru the uprights it is worth 3 points. (Again this option only exists if the ball was fair caught or a fair catch was "awarded!"
OR,
R can accept the K foul, in which case the game situation would be 1st and 10 for K on the K-17.5 yard line. (Not very likely R would choose this option)

Message for WVREF: Are your initials MW???

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by KWH

While seafood and pasta may taste good together in Canadia,
in the US, live ball fouls and dead ball fouls are never put together to create a double (or offsetting) foul.

Additionally, I have to question your Canadian Officiting credentials since you gave rulings on 3 plays that all occured on 4th down!!!
Good day eh... [/B]

That's too bad that LB and DB fouls are not offsetting. You should change that.

Ok, if I really need to mention it, assume on Canadian Rulings that plays occuring of 4th down occur on 3rd down in Canada. Other downs are largely immaterial.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

That's too bad that LB and DB fouls are not offsetting. You should change that.

[/B]

I should remind my Canadian colleague that LB and DB fouls do not necessarily offset.

If the situation were changed such that the punt was caught and advanced then the receiving team could choose whether to enforce the in flight foul from the point of possession or the point ball dead. The dead ball foul on the other hand, can only be applied after the live ball foul is applied and from where you end up after that enforcement.

So it would be better to say that LB and DB fouls are enforced consecutively rather than offsetting.