For this Stump-the-Chump exercise, I’ve presented a few relatively easy play situations. They shouldn’t require a lot of thought for either NCAA or Federation codes. But…there may be dramatic differences between a Federation ruling and an NCAA ruling. The purpose is simply to point out those differences. <b>Make sure you specify whether your response is for NCAA or Federation.</b> So read everybody's responses so you can see how different Friday night games are from Saturday afternoon contests! Or why Texas and Massachussetts football is so different than the rest of the US.

1. Free kick from A’s 40. Ball is rolling at B’s 4 where B12 muffs it and it rolls into B’s end zone. A34 recovers it there.

2. A, 3-5 from midfield. Wide receiver A88 inadvertently steps OOB at B’s 45 and returns immediately at B’s 43. Defender B22 pushes A88 just before a forward pass (catchable for NCAA purposes) falls incomplete nearby. QB A10 is roughed on the play.

3. On 4-8 from B’s 40, punter A8 muffs the snap. Under pressure, he recovers and scrambles to B’s 38 (beyond the NZ) where he punts downfield. The ball rolls into B’s EZ where A89 recovers it.

4. On 4-7 from midfield, QB A12 scrambles. He runs to B’s 48. He circles back to A’s 48 where he throws a forward pass to teammate A87 who runs it into B’s end zone.

5. With 0:10 seconds remaining in the game, A leads 23-20. On 4-10 from A’s 2. QB A11 is under pressure in his end zone. He intentionally grounds a pass to avoid a loss of yardage. Clock reads 0:02 at the end of the down.

Here's a shot from a Federation perspective:

1. Free kick from A’s 40. Ball is rolling at B’s 4 where B12 muffs it and it rolls into B’s end zone. A34 recovers it there.

Ruling: Touchback

2. A, 3-5 from midfield. Wide receiver A88 inadvertently steps OOB at B’s 45 and returns immediately at B’s 43. Defender B22 pushes A88 just before a forward pass (catchable for NCAA purposes) falls incomplete nearby. QB A10 is roughed on the play.

Ruling: Double foul; replay the down. A88 has committed IP, B22 commits DPI, and a B player has committed roughing the passer.

3. On 4-8 from B’s 40, punter A8 muffs the snap. Under pressure, he recovers and scrambles to B’s 38 (beyond the NZ) where he punts downfield. The ball rolls into B’s EZ where A89 recovers it.

Ruling: I say the kick is still illegal even though the kicker is in the ENZ. If the foul is accepted it's 15 from the previous, replay the down. If declined then it would be a TD as an illegal kick is treated as a fumble and I believe you can't have a touchback on an illegal kick.

4. On 4-7 from midfield, QB A12 scrambles. He runs to B’s 48. He circles back to A’s 48 where he throws a forward pass to teammate A87 who runs it into B’s end zone.

Ruling: TD for A. The pass is legal.

5. With 0:10 seconds remaining in the game, A leads 23-20. On 4-10 from A’s 2. QB A11 is under pressure in his end zone. He intentionally grounds a pass to avoid a loss of yardage. Clock reads 0:02 at the end of the down.

Ruling: It's a safety whether the grounding is accepted or declined because the run ended in the endzone and the play ended there. There will need to be an untimed down for the free kick at a minimum as possession has changed and a safety was involved.

The free kick will happen, however, I disagree with your statement that it will be an untimed down. A down begins with a legal snap or a free kick (2-7-1), so the free kick is going to be the last timed down of the period, not the safety since there is still :02 on the clock.

Here is my take with both codes.

<b>1. Free kick from A’s 40. Ball is rolling at B’s 4 where B12 muffs it and it rolls into B’s end zone. A34 recovers it there.</b>
NF – TB for B - ball is dead when it breaks plane of EZ since it was only muffed, the kick never ended
NCAA – TD for team A

<b>2. A, 3-5 from midfield. Wide receiver A88 inadvertently steps OOB at B’s 45 and returns immediately at B’s 43. Defender B22 pushes A88 just before a forward pass (catchable for NCAA purposes) falls incomplete nearby. QB A10 is roughed on the play.</b>
NF – double foul and replay, 3 fouls were IP, DPI, and RTP
NCAA – No IP cuz he was not first to touch ball, no DPI cuz he is an ineligible receiver when he went OOB’s and you cannot have DPI on an ineligible, so the only foul we have is RTP – result 1-10 at the B’s 35 yard line.


<b>3. On 4-8 from B’s 40, punter A8 muffs the snap. Under pressure, he recovers and scrambles to B’s 38 (beyond the NZ) where he punts downfield. The ball rolls into B’s EZ where A89 recovers it.</b>
NF – Illegal kick, penalize 15 yards from PS and repeat the down, or if they decline TD for A as in NF an illegal kick is treated as a fumble – DON’T let B decline! Result 4-23 from B’s 25
NCAA – ball is dead at spot of illegal kick, 5 yard penalty from PS and LOD - so B’s ball 1-10 at B’s 45


<b>4. On 4-7 from midfield, QB A12 scrambles. He runs to B’s 48. He circles back to A’s 48 where he throws a forward pass to teammate A87 who runs it into B’s end zone.</b>
NF – no foul as he can cross NZ and come back as long as he both of his feet are behind NZ at time of pass
NCAA – Illegal forward pass as in NCAA once you have crossed the NZ you may not return behind it and pass the ball legally. Penalty is 5 yards from spot of foul and LOD, so result is 4-14 from B’s 43.


<b>5. With 0:10 seconds remaining in the game, A leads 23-20. On 4-10 from A’s 2. QB A11 is under pressure in his end zone. He intentionally grounds a pass to avoid a loss of yardage. Clock reads 0:02 at the end of the down.</b>
NF – Safety, and unfortunately team B does not have the option of taking the ball at another spot and trying to win the game on the last play.
NCAA - B can accept the penalty which would result in a safety, or decline the penalty, have the down count and accept the result of the play at the previous spot with the result being B’s ball 1-goal at the 2 yard line.

Bob, good post, please put on McGriffs as well. The McGriff's STChumpers have been diminishing.

4. NCAA - penalty is LOD - it's not 4th, it's 1st and 10 for B.

3. FED - "Don't let B decline!!!" What if B was behind by 1 pt when the play started, and the clock ran out during this play. If B accepts the penalty, they are still down by 1, but A can simply down the ball on the untimed down - but if B declines, they are down by 8 - with a kickoff coming. They at least have a chance to win if they accept the TD.

PS - can't believe you guys in FED allow DPI on an ineligible receiver.

REPLY: One of the key differences between the two codes is that in Fed, if a player is eligible at the beginning of the down, he's eligible throughout the down -- regardless of what he does (or where he goes). So in fact, that DPI is against an eligible receiver whereas in NCAA a receiver loses his eligibility by going OOB.

After further review...
 

MJT-

On the FED portion of #3 you had an enforcment option error! (Plus you marched your penalty off in the wrong direction)
Under federation code, since this play by definition was a <b>running play</b>, the foul is enforced from the <b>end of the run</b> which would be the B38. (You were enforcing it from the PS as you would if it were a loose ball play.)
The key here is the <b>illegal kick</b> by A occurred <b>beyond</b> the neutral zone! <i>(If B accepts the penalty it would be 4th and 21 on the A47 yard line)</i>
Reference NFHS 10-3-2, 10-3-1c, and <b>2-31-1c</b>

kdf5 - I happen to be an Eagles fan. I didn't look at the clock. You're right it's not an untimed down and I have no idea why I said that. My point was supposed to be that there was going to be another play and that the safety would be enforced no matter what. My bad. To much watching the Eagles in the Super Bowl and their inability to even consider the clock.

You have to wonder sometimes how coaches and players can get paid as much as they do and still run the clock like a bunch of Pop Warners.

mcrowder and KWH, thanks for seeing my oversights! Sloppy answers occur when you don't look through your responses carefully enough. I figured if I messed up, some of you would correct me.

FED: Next year if time HAD run out during situation 5 the game would be over even if the penalty was accepted.

I'm most familiar with Fed rules, but I'll try both sets. Corrections definitely welcome.

FED: Touchback as soon as the ball breaks the plane. A kick is a kick is a kick...
NCAA: I believe this is a touchdown for A. No touchback if the ball is touched by B before it hits the ground in the end zone.

FED: A88 committed an ill. participation foul at the B43 - this is a live-ball IP foul. He's still -eligible- though, so we have DPI on B22. This creates a double foul; the roughing is just gravy at this point.

NCAA: Hmmm. I think NCAA rules only have a foul on A88 if he's the first one to touch the loose ball inbounds. I also suspect that he may no longer be eligible, but I could certainly be wrong here. In any event, I believe the end result is that A will accept the roughing penalty, bringing up 1/10 at B's 35 yard line.

FED: Illegal kick at B38. This is treated as a fumble, so A89's recovery is tehnically a TD. The penalty will of course be accepted, bringing up 4/21 from the A47.

NCAA: I have some memory that illegal kicks in NCAA include loss of down. If that's the case, then 'twould be B 1/10 at the A47.

FED: Legal pass, TD.
NCAA: Illegal pass, B 1/10 at the A43.

FED: Safety no matter what.
NCAA: B may decline the penalty and take over on downs, 1/10 at the A2.

[Edited by The Roamin' Umpire on Feb 20th, 2005 at 11:24 AM]

Canadian Ruling
 

1. We don't have a free kick, but if something like that were to happen, like on a kick-off or a punt, score a touchdown for A.

2. Illegal participation A88. There is no DPI as A88 is not an eligible receiver. So, 10 against A. Roughing the passer is 15 against B. Therefore, A-1D/10 @ B-50.

3. Rouge. 1 point A. B scrimmage from their 35.

4. Touchdown.

5. B's option to score two points and go with our safety options, or decline the IG and accept the play as an incomplete pass, and therefore scrimmage 1D/G @ A-2.

Those were fun!

Re: Canadian Ruling
 

Comment and correction:

2. I am not sure that running OOB makes a receiver ineligible. When he goes OOB he has comitted a foul and if he catches it he may not get to keep his catch. However, you could say the same thing for him leaving the LOS early. So my opinion would be to go with a dual foul for IP and DPI plus the UR.

3. I think you missed the fact that A recovered in the end zone. So if A89 is onside then it is TD for A. If A89 is offside then we have no yards and so no point and give the ball to B on the B-35.

Re: Re: Canadian Ruling
 

3. You're right... if my mind, I had B recovering the ball in the EZ. Naturally, if A recovers, then it's a TD.

2. You could say that DPI against an A player is such that if A catches the ball, then the yards will stand. Leaving the LS early is different than leaving the playing field. It doesn't say in the white book that DPI against an illegally participating player is not called though. What is A15 comes off the bench and then is interfered with? Interesting anyways.

Re: Re: Re: Canadian Ruling
 

The difference between an ineligibly numbered player who cannot have DPI committed on him and this situation is that the ineligibly numbered player would commit a foul only if they touched the ball. So preventing the player from touching the ball (i.e. fouling) is not a foul on B's part.

The other argument is that B can gain an advantage if allowed to commit DPI. In a situation with just IP and DPI, B can do no worse than give A another down. However, if B is allowed to prevent A from catching the ball and the pass goes incomplete then B could decline the penalty for IP and gain an advantage. This is because A has already fouled. So we must not allow B to prevent A from catching the ball. This lets A the opportunity to make the result of the play unpalatable to B so they must take the penalty.

Ok, would someone please post a rule reference for play #4? I had no idea that a QB could run beyond the line of scrimmage, retreat, and then throw a legal forward pass. Please post the rule references/case book plays that support this. Thanks!

In NF, if either of the passers feet are behind the NZ, it is legal (7-5-1), but in NCAA, if any part of his body is beyond, it is illegal (7-3-2a). It also states in NCAA that if he onced crossed the NZ, he may not come back behind and legally throw. I cannot find the rule refernce on that one quickly, but it is in the "nonofficial", but widely accepted "differences" book.

REPLY: Like many play situations, this one (for Federation at least) is legal because there's no explicit rule against it. So you won't find a specific reference in the Fed book for this play. But, as MJT points out, the restriction on the passer is solely related to where his feet are relative to the LOS when he passes the ball. Says nothing about where he or another runner might have been prior to the pass. Therefore...it's legal. Contrast this with the NCAA rule (7-3-2e) which explicitly forbids a forward pass thrown from behind the NZ once the passer or any runner in possession of the ball had gone beyond the NZ. In NCAA rules, this is an IFP.

For some of the newbies out there, this is a very important principle. If something is not expressly prohibited by the rules, it's legal. Therefore, don't go looking for a rule reference that says something is legal. You probably won't find it. For example, is it legal the fake a handoff? Of course, but don't go looking for a rule reference in either the Fed or NCAA books.

Has there ever been an "official" interpretation or case play published by the NFHS that supports this? Also, would the same principle hold true if the QB ran upfield, turned and threw the ball to someone behind the line of scrimmage, and that player then threw a pass? Just doesn't seem right to me.

REPLY: The closest thing I can find to satisfy you is from the 1993 edition of the <i>Football Rules Differences</i>. On page 88, play #20:

<b>PLAY:</b> A1 take the snap, runs beyond the line, then retreats back behind the line from where he throws a forward pass.
<b>FED:</b> The forward pass is legal
<b>NCAA:</b> The forward pass is illegal. Once the ball crosses the line in possession of a runner, it may not be passed forward regardless of the location from which it is passed.

Also, the play you presented is legal...provided all ineligibles remained on their side of the neutral zone (or expanded neutral zone) until the pass was thrown.

And if you really want to mull one over, consider this (my <b><i>Stump the Chump</i></b> entry for this week):
<b>PLAY:</b> 4th and 10 from midfield. A1 punts the ball short. Receiver B7 muffs the kick at B's 45. It rolls back to A's 45 where A1 picks it up and throws a forward pass to A88. A88 drops it. Let's assume that all Team A ineligibles remained on their side of the neutral zone till the pass was thrown. <b>RULING: (Specify FED or NCAA)</b>

And if you really want to mull one over, consider this (my <b><i>Stump the Chump</i></b> entry for this week):
<b>PLAY:</b> 4th and 10 from midfield. A1 punts the ball short. Receiver B7 muffs the kick at B's 45. It rolls back to A's 45 where A1 picks it up and throws a forward pass to A88. A88 drops it. Let's assume that all Team A ineligibles remained on their side of the neutral zone till the pass was thrown. <b>RULING: (Specify FED or NCAA)</b> [/B][/QUOTE]

Alright Bob, here is my take on your STC question.

NF: If A1 would have fell on the ball, or been downed, then 1-10 for A at that spot. That is easy, as B touched it beyond the NZ. Now, since he didn't fall on it, but picked it up and legally passed it, the down never ended, and since it was an incomplete pass on what is still 4th down and team A did not reach the LTG, it will be B's ball at the PS.

NCAA: In NCAA your play is easier. Once a scrimmage kick crosses the NZ, if a team A player recovers, the ball becomes dead. In this case then, the ball becomes dead when A1 picks it up, and it will be team A's ball at that spot. The pass has no significance since the play was already dead. A's ball 1-10 at A's 45 yard line.

REPLY: MJT...I agree with your NCAA answer. That was the easier of the two rulings. But I'm not sure I agree with your Fed answer. I think it will be A's ball 1-10 from midfield. The continuity of downs has been broken once B touches the scrimmage kick beyond the NZ. It's not elegant, but even though the down didn't end, the series of downs did end once B muffed the kick. For further thought, what would you do if the same play occurred on <u>third</u> down?

[Edited by Bob M. on Mar 8th, 2005 at 05:23 PM]

I debated that as well, but was unsure about it cuz of the 4th down status. I would say if 3rd down, then 4th down for A, but since it was 4th down, and when the down ended, team A did not reach the LTG and is not really in team possession as a result of the pass, it would be B's ball. I saw potential problems in my, and your answer, while researching my answer. I know is says "a new series is awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down if R touches a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ," but I am debating the fact of IF the down never ending until the incomplete 4th down pass, are they actually are in team possession at the end of the down? <b>Consider the following. Is team A the team in final possession if on a normal 4th down play, if they throw an incomplete pass? No. That is one of the major factors I am basing my answer on. </b>

I am interested in others thoughts. This could be a good one!!! :)

REPLY: I think the rule book is very clear that if B touches a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, the next down will be a first down...for someone! My ruling (A, 1-10) is based upon this rule (5-1-2f) and Football Fundamental II-3. So, in my estimation it could never be 4th down if the given play occurred on third down. It would have to be a first down, and you clearly can't award the ball to B. In order to be consistent, that would also be true if the play occurred on 4th down.

On a related topic based upon your post, the Federation is pretty indiscriminate about how they use the word "possession." Whereas the NCAA has a defined term "belongs to" which signifies temporary custody (at least) of the ball, the Fed doesn't. However, the biggest shortcoming of the Fed's definition of "possession" is that it only refers to a live ball. There is no concept (defined) of possession of a dead ball. I think that most of us have gotten by that with an understanding that <u>legal</u> possession of a dead ball belongs to the team next entitled to put the ball in play by snap or free kick. But that's nowhere stated in the Fed rules. For example, K's scrimmage kick untouched by R is rolling beyond the NZ. K picks it up. Who has possession? Well, when the down ended K held and controlled the ball. By Fed definition, he was in possession when the down ended. But...if there was a foul by R during this scrimmmage kick, we treat it as a PSK foul, right? And aren't fouls by R during a scrimmage kick PSK-enforceable only when "...K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends?" (NF 2-16-2g) Do you see the inconsistency? I've already heard some veteran officials say that if R fouls during such a play, they would treat it as a foul during a loose ball play because K <u>did</u> have possession when the down ended. I think we know that's incorrect, but how could you prove it to them? In actuality, the wording of the rules supports their position. Personally, I think the Fed needs to define "legal possession" as we did above, and use that phrase in its criteria for PSK enforcement.

I know I've rambled a bit from the original question, but I still think it will be A's ball 1-10.

I am going to start this out with my #1 question; if team A throws an incomplete forward pass on 4th down, who is in possession at the end of that down?? Now that you have your answer, we’ll come back to that later.

I totally understand FB Fundamental II-3, which says “If R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, a new series will be awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down…” If he had just fallen on the ball, they would be in possession at the end of the down, and therefore it would be A’s ball 1-10. I initially thought the same as you, but I just don’t know if they are in possession at the end of the down <b>if they threw an incomplete pass on 4th down.</b>
That is exactly what they did, throw an incomplete pass on 4th down. It just so happened that the incomplete pass was after a muffed SK by R beyond the NZ. I totally understand that if this was a 3rd down, it would be a 1-10 for team A, and that is kind of weird that it may different if it was 3rd down instead of 4th down. That is not really logical, but <b>do you see my rationale that the down never ended, so when A threw the incomplete pass, 4th down is now over and they did not reach the LTG? Now that does not matter, if they are in possession at the end of that down. The problem is, that down ended with an incomplete pass, I just don’t know if team A technically is. </b>

I called another guy on my crew, and he says A's forward pass was illegal cuz possession changed when A punted the ball, so they cannot pass it after possession has changed. I disagree! He also says that team possession must have changed on the muff by R beyond the NZ, otherwise why would K get the ball if they were in possession at the end of the down. I disagree with that as well. Team possession did not change because team B never gained player possession. I told him the rules simply says if B muffs it beyond the NZ, 1st down for whoever, but if muffed by B in or behind the NZ, A must reach the LTG. He is on vacation, and has no rule book, so just winging it. I say is wrong on both counts, but would see what you all thought.

REPLY: I'm with you here...your crew member needs a little bit more grounding in the fundamentals!

Now, for the original play, do you think that NF 5-1-2b might play a part in the ruling? NF 5-1-2b: <i>"After a fourth down, a new series shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, other than a non-player or unsportsmanlike foul."</i> The touching by B/R must be considered prior to determining who to award a new series to. Right?

Also, take a look at Case Book Play 5.1.3 Situation C, part (b) (abbreviated): 4th and 10 from K's 45-yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the NZ, R1 muffs it back behind the NZ where K1 recovers and throws a forward pass to K3 which is complete and the 50 and R1 interferes with K3.

Ruling: Since R1touched the locl beyond the NZ, it will be first down for the team in possession. The pass is legal, as there has been no change of possession. If K accepts the penalty for interference, it will be K's ball at R's 40-yard line.

Unfortunately, they don't say what the result would be if K declined the penalty. The reason for this omission is that it's obvious K will accept, since declination would give K a first down at the 50. K gains 10 yards by accepting the penalty.

[Edited by Bob M. on Mar 9th, 2005 at 09:25 AM]

I agree with Bob M that A gets a new series. I think what makes this play so controversial or whatever is the thought of how coaches, players and crowd would react if this play ever happened for real. I hope it never happens to me
11

I'm with Bob M on this one.



Here is the Series of Downs rule with the "conflicting" rules. (Rule 5-1-3):

<i>When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:

B, if at the end of the fourth down, the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain.


The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred before the kick ended.</i>


In my opinion the more specific rule that deals with our situation is the 2nd rule BECAUSE it involves R touching a scrimmage kick beyond the ENZ. That act will give the TEAM in possession of the ball a new series when the down ends. Team possession did not change during the down. An incomplete forward pass does not change team possession. Team A still has team possession.


Let's remove the incomplete pass totally from the equation. What would the ruling be? Which rule takes precedence?



[Edited by mikesears on Mar 9th, 2005 at 10:59 AM]

After reading the relevant rules again, it seems to me that the easiest way to rule on this is to remember that K could pick up this ball and advance it and if he can advance it then he could also throw it or punt it as well. Does that make sense or am I off the mark?

The casebook play is totally different cuz the pass is complete. I think you are probably correct on the whole matter, but the fact of the incomplete forward pass on 4th down is the problem. The problem then becomes, who is in possession at the end of the 4th down incomplete pass??????? Do you at least agree that being it was an incomplete pass on 4th down that we have some fog over the situation??

We cannot remover the incomplete pass, cuz that is the hitch to the whole problem.

On an incomplete forward pass on 4th down, team possession does change if there are no penalties, which there were not. Now 5-2-b says you also must consider the effect of any act during the down, which R's touching is probably what determines that we will have a first down for A. I initially said the same, saw some fog with the "4th down incomplete pass" so thought I'd throw out my idea, and defend it to see how far it may get. I was fully aware I would be dispelled, and come back to my original, and safer thought. Just wanted to get the juices flowing and the rule books opened. GOOD DISCUSSION!

I agree that the discussion is good. I appreciate the question because it does make us get into the book. It really makes us all work on understanding definitions and rules.



The reason I recommended removing the incomplete pass from the equation is that we would have Team A in possession of the ball behind the line to gain.

Here is the play without that. 4/10 from the A-20. A1 punts the ball high and short. B1 attempts to catch the punt the at the A-28 and muffs the ball. A2 recovers the muffed punt at the A-18 and advances to the A-22.

Whose ball is it? If we want to argue that A is in possession of the ball behind the line to gain, it would be B's ball. But no rules knowledgable official would make that ruling because of the rule regarding B touching a scrimmage kick beyond the ENZ.

I don't see how adding an ADDITIONAL act of an imcomplete pass changes this. Still had a scrimmage kick that B touched beyond the ENZ.


Am I making sense in what I am trying to hilight here?


The rule doesn't say that after an incomplete pass on 4th down, the ball belongs to B. It says that if the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain, B is awarded a new series. It doesn't matter why the ball is behind the line to gain. If it is returned to the previous spot because of an incomplete pass or if A fails to run it beyond the line to gain, it never got there. So, I humbly assert that the specific rule regarding B touching a scrimmage kick beyond the line to gain takes precedence over the general rule regarding A not making the line to gain.





[Edited by mikesears on Mar 9th, 2005 at 12:41 PM]

Not under NFHS rules. If A (K) recovers (in or???) behind the neutral zone, they can advance the ball. It does not matter if the ball crossed the neutral zone.

Sometimes the answer is right there and you just can't see it...
 

It appears that some of you contend NFHS 5-1-3c is in direct conflict with NFHS 5-1-3f.

<b>Using NFHS logic, these two rules <u>can never conflict</u></b> as;
NFHS 5-1-3c is applicable only while players of <b>A and B</b> are on the field,
while,
NFHS 5-1-3f is applicable only while players of <b>K and R </b>are one the field.

Reference: NFHS 2-42-3 and 2-42-4
Note that 2-42-4 states that <i>Team designations are retained until the ball is next declared ready for play</i>

Since Team desinations do not change during a down, 5-1-3c DOES NOT APPLY</b> to the play in question.

Hence, since only 5-1-3f applies to the play in question, the answer then to your original play has to be:
<b>1st and 10 for K at midfield </b>

Don't ya'll just love these forums??

I totally agree with all you have said. Your above play is an easy one for knowlegdable rules people, it would be 1-10 for A at A's 22. I just thought the ADDITIONAL ACT may complicate things a bit, and thought I'd throw it out there. Like I said, I was pretty certain of the answer, just wanted to fog it up and see how it eventually cleared.

That is an NCAA rule only.

Re: Sometimes the answer is right there and you just can't see it...
 

Good point. So my question to you is, on a normal 4th down incomplete pass by A, who is in possession at the end of the down?? A or B. If we agree it is still A until the RFP, then we have no problem, if we say B, now we have a major problem which I have pointed out.

Re: Re: Sometimes the answer is right there and you just can't see it...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJT

Quote:

Good point. So my question to you is, on a normal 4th down incomplete pass by A, who is in possession at the end of the down?? A or B. If we agree it is still A until the RFP, then we have no problem, if we say B, now we have a major problem which I have pointed out.

To answer your question lets break it down,

1) By definition, (2-32-2) the LIVE BALL is in Team Possession of A during your 4th down play.

2) By rule, (5-1-3c) a NEW SERIES is awarded to B <b>if at the end of 4th down the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain. </b>

The correct answer to your question then is: <b>A is in possession after the 4th down incomplete pass.</b>
And, since A is in possession of the ball behind the line to gain after the completion of 4th down, by rule(5-1-3c), A new series is awarded to B.

I hope this helps...

And there we have it! That defeats my main arguement, so like I said, I'm back to 1-10 for A.

This is a play which would put any crew on the spot. Both arguements have their validity. Both have their rules backing them. We all know that if there had not been any forward pass attempted that K would keep the ball. We also know that if A had not kicked the ball and ended the 4th down play with a legal incomplete pass that it would be B's ball. I am leaning toward allowing K to keep the ball because of the touching by R but explaining how a team can keep the ball after throwing an incomplete forward pass might just get us run out of the stadium.

It would clarify things under NF rules to say that after a legal kick it is illegal to attempt a forward pass and vice versa.

???? The NFHS creat an exception ????
 

That would require an <b>EXCEPTION,</B> a word rarely used in NFHS codes.
Unlike the NCAA, the NFHS mindset is <b>NOT</b> to write an exception anytime a waterbucket type play (such as this one for example) occurs and some coach, AD, or school feels it needs fixing.
I'm not saying the NCAA mindset is wrong, but on this issue, <b>the two codes have two distinct schools of thought.</b>
The results are obvious, the NCAA rules have so many exceptions they can't be counted without the use of a adding machine, while the NFHS rules utilize but a small handful of exceptions.

[Edited by KWH on Mar 10th, 2005 at 01:38 PM]

To make this situation even uglier assume that after K recovers the kick behind the line (that was muffed by R beyond the line) he then throws an illegal forward pass.

Good question. I am assuming that they cannot have a LOD, since they are awarded a new series at the end of the down, so it would be a 5 yard penalty from the spot of the IFP and 1-10 for team A.

As per the new rule changes...
 

<b>Under 2005 NFHS Rules...</b>(As per the last draft of Rule 3-3-4) If your illegal forward pass were to occur on the last play of the period, the period would be over!

Reference:<b> NFHS website - 1/21/05 PRESS RELEASE</b>
<i>Rule 3-3-4 – A period shall not be extended when a foul occurs that specifies a loss of down. This will prevent a team from gaining an advantage by committing a “loss of down” foul.</i>