Even though I'm a Fed official I'm interested in seeing NCAA rulings as well to the following:

A's ball 4th and 15 from A20 with :20 seconds remaining in the game and trailing by 6 points. A34 runs a sweep down the right sideline. During A34's run there is a block below the waist by an A player at B's 10 yardline.

A) a member of team B grabs (does not twist or pull) A34's facemask in making the <u>inbounds</u> tackle at team B's 5 yardline.

B) Same as A except there is no foul by a team B player.

In both cases :02 remains on the game clock after the play. Clock? And, how would you explain the options to the captain who has the penalty option in each case?

In (A) I do not believe there is any option. The penalties offset and the down is replayed. I believe the period would be extended for an untimed down since there was an accepted penalty (offsetting) during the last timed down.

In (B) the penalty would be enforced under the all but one and, again, the period would be extended if time expires without running another play.

A) double foul, replay down and the clock starts on the RFP. If another play is not run, we will have an untimed down. Let both teams and coaches know the clock will start on the RFP.

B) you had better measure, cuz if they are short of the LTG, B will decline the penalty, new series awarded to B and they will win the game with the next snap if no fouls. If they make the LTG, give B the option of declining the penalty (1-goal at 5 for A and if team A does not get a play off, game over) or accept the penalty and have 4th-20 at the 25 for team A.
Very important to let both teams and coaches know the clock will start on the RFP. If A does not get a play off, and the penalty was accepted, we will have an untimed down.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJT

B) you had better measure, cuz if they are short of the LTG,

MJT,

What is there to measure? A34 ran the ball from the A 20 to the B5. It sure looks to me that he reached and passed the LTG. I will agree that you have to make sure both coaches know when the clock will start because it will have a big impact on if B accepts or declines the penalty. I'm not sure but I believe the clock would start on the ready if B declines the penalty.

You beat me to it. I was going to say we'd look awfully silly making the chains come out on a play where they made the LTG by 60 yards. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IAUMP

Quote:

Originally posted by MJT B) you had better measure, cuz if they are short of the LTG, MJT, What is there to measure? A34 ran the ball from the A 20 to the B5. It sure looks to me that he reached and passed the LTG. I will agree that you have to make sure both coaches know when the clock will start because it will have a big impact on if B accepts or declines the penalty. I'm not sure but I believe the clock would start on the ready if B declines the penalty.

Boy, I was going the wrong way, no need to measure when he runs 75 yards!

My starting on the snap was when I had the distances messed up. What I was getting at, was if team A did not reach the LTG, then B would have the ball, down it, and game over! If A retains the ball, the clock will start on the RFP.

NCAA: In (a) The penaties offset and the clock will start on the RFP. If time runs out before A snaps the ball then Team B wins the game.

(b) The block below the waist is legal in this play. Team A retains the ball 1st and goal at the B-5. The clock will start on the RFP.

In both plays I think it's important that both teams coaches know that the clock will start on the RFP.

REPLY: ljudge...the key difference between NF and NCAA rulings here involves the potential extension of the 4th period. In NF, the foul with an excepted penalty must occur during the last timed down of the period. Whether or not there is time remaining on the clock when that play ends is of no consequence. As long as that was the last timed down, we extend. However, in NCAA rules, in order to extend the period, the time must actually expire <u>during</u> the down in which the foul occurs, i.e. the clock must be reading 0:00. Therefore, those 2 seconds remaining when the down ends are significant in NCAA rules, and we would not extend the period for the foul. Hence, Jason's ruling.

Jason
If the block below the waist is legal in play b, why is it illegal in play a? You are correct as far as the clock and communicating with the coaches.

Good dialogue here. I thought the NCAA would at least have an answer to the double foul anomaly that FED has. In situation A team B can gain an advantage by fouling which is bad. This would be a great rules change if anybody had a good answer to this.

In A the ball goes back to the previous spot and A loses all those yards whereas in situation B it's snapped after marking off A's foul and A doesn't lose anything but their own penalty yards.

Thank you! I kept thinking the same thing as I was reading all the replies. B actually benefits on this play by commiting a penalty. Now we all know no one is smart enough to do this during a game, but it is still a flaw in the rules.

NF
In play A the result is a double foul. Replay from the previous spot, clock starts on the ready. If time runs out prior to the snap the period is extended for a untimed down.
In play B, Team B is assessed a half the distance penalty. A’s ball, first and goal at the 2 1/2 yardline. The clock starts on the ready. If time runs out prior to the snap the period is extended for a untimed down.

NCAA
Both A and B. The block below the waist is legal, no foul on team A. The facemask foul on B is enforced from the succeeding spot. A’s ball, first and goal at the 2 1/2 yardline. The clock starts on the ready. If time runs out prior to the snap, the period is not extended because time did not expire during the down.
Dale Smith

NCAA- Okay, there is confusion on the block below the waist. It can be legal. For the sake of arguement, change it to a clip or hold on A, and now we're back to B benefiting by commiting a foul.

What does NFL do? Bob M. can you get this from #134?

NCAA
You are correct. How ever A should not have fouled. Now we have offsetting fouls. The ball is placed at the previous spot. The clock is started on the ready. If time runs out prior to the snap, the period is not extended because time did not expire during the down.

That's the way it goes. I don't think B is going to be thinking "we should foul as well cuz then they will offset and we'll go all the way back to the PS."

NFL, the only thing is if there is a 5 vs 15 foul, only the 15 is administered.

OK. Just to make it easy let's just say equal yardage vs. equal yardage (eg: 10-yd penalty v. a 10-yard penalty). Does NFL go back to previous?

Yep!

How many other ways can we think of where B benefits by committing a penalty (other than the obvious of fouling to prevent a big play such as pass interference)?

Something about this is just grossly wrong! I can honestly say in my 19 years of football, I can't remember a situation like this where there is such an extreme and unjust effect of penalty enforcement.

Steve
Nothing is wrong here. If B had not fouled the penalty for A foul is enforced per each code. In this case the penalty is enforced from B’s 10. The lessen for team A is, if you want to keep all of the yardage that you gained during a play don’t foul.

Not true. The lesson here would be for team B to commit a foul and they come out much better than if they had not committed a foul. By fouling, the down is replayed from the original LOS. By not fouling, B loses all the yards A gained before their foul. So in this case, B is better off with "dirty hands" than with "clean hands".

In my opinion, Dale's point about "if A wants to keep all their yardage, don't foul" is the best point brought out.

Okay, I think everyone is missing my point. This not about A, other than they committed a foul. This is about B gaining an advantage by fouling. Let's start at the beginning and look at all the possibilities.....

Same play, long run by A, we'll say 80 yard run.

1- Only A fouls near the end of the run. A is penalized from the spot of the foul. End result is a gain of 65 yards.

2- Only B fouls (live ball). In the example given, yardage is tacked onto the end of the A's run. End result is a gain of 85 yards.

3- A and B foul. End result is to replay the down.

My point is that because of A's foul, the best possible result for B is to also foul. By fouling, B loses no yards on the play, and A is actually penalized for B's foul. I don't think I can be any clearer than that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stevesmith
Okay, I think everyone is missing my point. This not about A, other than they committed a foul. This is about B gaining an advantage by fouling. Let's start at the beginning and look at all the possibilities.....

Same play, long run by A, we'll say 80 yard run.

1- Only A fouls near the end of the run. A is penalized from the spot of the foul. End result is a gain of 65 yards.

2- Only B fouls (live ball). In the example given, yardage is tacked onto the end of the A's run. End result is a gain of 85 yards.

3- A and B foul. End result is to replay the down.

My point is that because of A's foul, the best possible result for B is to also foul. By fouling, B loses no yards on the play, and A is actually penalized for B's foul. I don't think I can be any clearer than that. [/QUOTE

We see your point, but ours is, if A doesn't like it, they should not have fouled in the first place. As some people say "them's the rules!"

How about the fact that if B holds A during a pitch, and they run for 50 yards, A has to decline the penalty cuz it would be enforced from the PS, but if they had held on a running play, it would be tacked on to the end of the run. That follows your same philosophy as unfair, doesn't it? So what do you do with that one??

I've always maintained that an easy way to fix this is to allow A to decline B's foul (or vice versa). Seems to me that you should ALWAYS be allowed to decline a foul by the other team. You would only do so, obviously, in cases where the outcome is better for you had the other team not fouled. You can do this on plays where you don't foul - why not on plays like this one?