Stump the Chump: Thursday (Q#3)

ljudge · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 12:31pm

Another one we discussed at our chapter this season....

With the down marker showing 4th down, A32 is stopped short of the line to gain. The referee then signals 1st down for B. The coach of A then asks for time out to discuss with the referee that it was only 3rd down. The officials all agree that the previous play was in fact only 3rd down.

JugglingReferee · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 12:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ljudge
Another one we discussed at our chapter this season....

With the down marker showing 4th down, A32 is stopped short of the line to gain. The referee then signals 1st down for B. The coach of A then asks for time out to discuss with the referee that it was only 3rd down. The officials all agree that the previous play was in fact only 3rd down.

So now it's 4th down. B might be upset, but that's too bad. They'll have to learn that a million Chinese won't care tomorrow.

JugglingReferee · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 12:56pm

Having said that...

- A gets their time out back

- any official, including the stick crew, that knew it was only 3rd down on the previous play should have informed the R that it is now 4th down before the first down signal for B was given

- if the sticks have moved, use your best judgement as to how many yards to go are left. Using the two clip system, you can avoid this issue.

- if B has already scimmaged a play, then you're SOL; apologize and move on

MJT · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ljudge
Another one we discussed at our chapter this season....

With the down marker showing 4th down, A32 is stopped short of the line to gain. The referee then signals 1st down for B. The coach of A then asks for time out to discuss with the referee that it was only 3rd down. The officials all agree that the previous play was in fact only 3rd down.

This is a correctable error until a new series is awarded. A new series is not awarded until the official gives the ready for play. It sounds like this has not yet been given, so it is still correctable.

Warrenkicker · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 01:23pm

You have to go to the Case Book to find this because this is different than the rule that says corrections can only be made prior to the next play.

INCORRECT DOWN
5.1.1 SITUATION A: What procedure is used to correct an error if it is discovered: (a) a fifth down has been run; or (b) A has not been given its allotted four downs? RULING: In (a), if the referee determines a team has been given a fifth down, play will revert back to where it was before the fifth down was run. However, once a change of possession occurs or a new series has been awarded, no change can be made. In (b), the number of the next down can be corrected until that series has ended. COMMENT: Even though play selection, etc., is determined by the down number displayed on the down marker, the official down is determined by the referee.

Sadly we had to use this rule for the first time this year when the down marker got changed while we were changing ends between quarters. BJ and LJ confirmed the problem because they had both written down the down and distance before we changed ends.

Base · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 01:24pm

Will clock start on snap, because time was stopped to award 1st down for B or straight away when error fixed (provided ball was dead inbounds)?

ljudge · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 10:03pm

The official ruling we were given is that since the Referee had signaled first down, that meant that a new series was awarded and therefore nothing could be done. It had nothing to do with waiting for the RFP. Once the R had signaled first down then B had the ball 1st and 10.

MJT · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 10:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ljudge
The official ruling we were given is that since the Referee had signaled first down, that meant that a new series was awarded and therefore nothing could be done. It had nothing to do with waiting for the RFP. Once the R had signaled first down then B had the ball 1st and 10.

Who gave you that "official" ruling? Warrenkick shows above a case book where it says you can correct it until the series has ended. The series has ended when a new series has been awarded, and in the casebook 5.1.2 says "Following the RFP signal for a new series..." That indicates to me that the RFP is what starts a new series. This is my evidence that the correction could still be made. I think this evidence could be our backing to correct the error and "get it right." Your thoughts?

#9 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 17, 2004, 01:59am

Quote:

Originally posted by Warrenkicker

However, once a change of possession occurs or a new series has been awarded, no change can be made. In (b), the number of the next down can be corrected until that series has ended.

So, are we saying that on a change of possession that the down cannot be corrected?

And is the "series ended" the same as the "down ends"???

Warrenkicker · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 17, 2004, 08:41am

5-1-3 When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:
a. A, if the ball belongs to A on or beyond the line to gain.
b. B, if the ball belongs to B at the end of any down.
c. B, if at the end of the fourth down, the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain.

So the rule says that once the ball becomes dead after 4th down a new series is automatically awarded. However, if it is really third down then all of the requirements of 5-1-3c have not been met.

MJT · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 17, 2004, 10:47am

Good point as well Warrenkicker.

#12 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 17, 2004, 11:19am

Thanks Warrenkicker

ljudge · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 17, 2004, 12:08pm

In the post by Warrenkicker it says in part ...."However, once a change of possession occurs or a new series has been awarded, no change can be made"

Our rules interpreter told us that when the Referee signals first down a new series has been awarded at that point. So, after that no change can be made. I'm not sure where he got that from. I just trusted that it was from a reliable source.

ljudge · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 17, 2004, 12:09pm

Just for clarification when I said I'm not sure where he got that from I was referring to my rules interp, not warrenkicker. I'm guessing he called the Federation editor as he usually does.

Warrenkicker · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 17, 2004, 02:08pm

Well I can see somewhat why an interp would give that answer. However, a series automatically ends when, after a 4th down when there are no fouls, the ball becomes dead. But if the down is incorrect then it really wasn't 4th down and a new series was not actually awarded yet. The official signaling first down in any direction only indicates that a new series is awarded but did not award the new series.

I might equate the awarding of a new series to the ball becoming dead. The ball always becomes dead on it's own (except for the dreaded IW). A new series is awarded automatically (there is no inadvertent new series). 5-1-3 lists all the criteria for a new series. So I would say that we can't award a new series, it has to be earned. If we were to award a new series then that would be a mistake and it could be corrected prior to the next snap.

This does get to be a tricky one as I can see how it could be read both ways.