Play of the day

[kdf5]

3rd/15 fromt B's 25. Team A commits an illegal shift at the snap. A1's pass is intercepted by B2 at B's 1. B2 runs 99 yards for a TD. During his run B3 clipped A8 in B's EZ.

[MJT]

Originally posted by kdf5
3rd/15 fromt B's 25. Team A commits an illegal shift at the snap. A1's pass is intercepted by B2 at B's 1. B2 runs 99 yards for a TD. During his run B3 clipped A8 in B's EZ.

B will probably accept the illegal shift in order to create a double foul and replay the down.

However depending on the score and time in the game, they may decline A's foul, which would mean B's foul would have to be accepted resulting in a safety. B would KO from the 20. They may choose to do this is they are ahead by more than 2 at the end of the play and there are only a few seconds left. The option or kicking off and keeping their opponents from returning the kick for a score may, in their opinion, be easier than trying to keep them from scoring a TD on the final play.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJT

Originally posted by kdf5
3rd/15 fromt B's 25. Team A commits an illegal shift at the snap. A1's pass is intercepted by B2 at B's 1. B2 runs 99 yards for a TD. During his run B3 clipped A8 in B's EZ.

B will probably accept the illegal shift in order to create a double foul and replay the down.

However depending on the score and time in the game, they may decline A's foul, which would mean B's foul would have to be accepted resulting in a safety. B would KO from the 20. They may choose to do this is they are ahead by more than 2 at the end of the play and there are only a few seconds left. The option or kicking off and keeping their opponents from returning the kick for a score may, in their opinion, be easier than trying to keep them from scoring a TD on the final play. [/QU]

very good, can't improve on that...

[Mike Simonds]

Great answer!

Just for my own mental exercise:

The referee will have to explain the options to both teams. I'm assuming that he will consult with A's captain first since the result of the play was a touchdown by B.

If A declines the penalty for B's clip, then B will have the remaining two choices: Decline the penalty for A's illegal shift and score a touchdown. Or accept the penalty for A's illegal shift, create a double foul, and replay the down.

If A accepts the penalty for B's clip, then B will have the remaining two choices: Decline the penalty for A's illegal shift and let A score 2 points for the safety. Or accept the penalty for B's illegal shift, create a double foul, and replay the down.

Good question because in this case both sets of captains would have to be consulted.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
Great answer!

Just for my own mental exercise:

The referee will have to explain the options to both teams. I'm assuming that he will consult with A's captain first since the result of the play was a touchdown by B.

If A declines the penalty for B's clip, then B will have the remaining two choices: Decline the penalty for A's illegal shift and score a touchdown. Or accept the penalty for A's illegal shift, create a double foul, and replay the down.

If A accepts the penalty for B's clip, then B will have the remaining two choices: Decline the penalty for A's illegal shift and let A score 2 points for the safety. Or accept the penalty for B's illegal shift, create a double foul, and replay the down.

Good question because in this case both sets of captains would have to be consulted.

Actually Mike, team A does not need to be consulted at all. Since team B got the ball with clean hands, they have the only decision. If they accept A's penalty, B's foul will result in a double foul and replay. If B declines A's penalty, B's must be enforced and B will retain the ball. A has no penalty options. The thing in this one is if B declines A's foul, it will result in a safety against team B.

[stevesmith]

Originally posted by MJT
Actually Mike, team A does not need to be consulted at all. Since team B got the ball with clean hands, they have the only decision. If they accept A's penalty, B's foul will result in a double foul and replay. If B declines A's penalty, B's must be enforced and B will retain the ball. A has no penalty options. The thing in this one is if B declines A's foul, it will result in a safety against team B. [/B]

Never say never....I can't imagine such a scenario but A does have the right to decline B's penalty which would result in a touchdown for B. That would be a case where I as the referee don't give the options as much as I tell the A captain, "You don't want them to have the touchdown, do you?"

[MJT]

Originally posted by stevesmith

Never say never....I can't imagine such a scenario but A does have the right to decline B's penalty which would result in a touchdown for B. That would be a case where I as the referee don't give the options as much as I tell the A captain, "You don't want them to have the touchdown, do you?" [/B]

Actually Steve team A does not have any options if B accepts A's penalty. See rule 10-2-2 where after describing a similar situation it says "in this case the team that was not in last possession has no penalty options and the foul against R/B will be enforced.

[stevesmith]

Originally posted by MJT
Actually Steve team A does not have any options if B accepts A's penalty. See rule 10-2-2 where after describing a similar situation it says "in this case the team that was not in last possession has no penalty options and the foul against R/B will be enforced. [/B]

Lets clarify....are you discussing NCAA or FED rules? If NCAA, please tell me where you see that in 10-2-2. NCAA "offsetting fouls" are in 10-1-4.

[MJT]

Originally posted by stevesmith

Lets clarify....are you discussing NCAA or FED rules? If NCAA, please tell me where you see that in 10-2-2. NCAA "offsetting fouls" are in 10-1-4. [/B]

My statement and rule number was for NF. NCAA does not have the exact statement, so team A could, but as you stated, probably would never decline R/B's penalty.

[JugglingReferee]

Very interesting to read the American way to handle this.

In Canada, if both fouls are accepted, the dual foul rule applies. If one is declined, the other is treated as though it's the only foul.

Since A fouled first, B gets the first option. As was said earlier, B obtained the ball with clean hands. Therefore, B will likely decline A's foul. Then we penalize the B foul from where the ball was held at the time of the infraction. This is called Point Ball Held (PBH). The B clipping is a 15 yard foul in Canada but is not an "unnecessary roughness" foul, which are also 15 yards + AFD if applicable.

Since it's not a UR foul, and therefore highly arguable that it is a tactical foul, one would wonder that it should only be called if it has an impact on the play. Ie: B player that made the INT is close to where the clip happened. If the B player is at mid-field when the clip happened, then what effect does a clip have on the play? The answer is none. In that case, the flag should come out for UR because a clip that far away likely does not have a tactical advantage, but it does carry a safety issue. Still 15 yards.

This is one Cdn foul I wish was promoted to the UR flavour regardless.

If B accepts A's foul, then B's clip, by rule, is not applied.

[ref18]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Very interesting to read the American way to handle this.

In Canada, if both fouls are accepted, the dual foul rule applies. If one is declined, the other is treated as though it's the only foul.

Since A fouled first, B gets the first option. As was said earlier, B obtained the ball with clean hands. Therefore, B will likely decline A's foul. Then we penalize the B foul from where the ball was held at the time of the infraction. This is called Point Ball Held (PBH). The B clipping is a 15 yard foul in Canada but is not an "unnecessary roughness" foul, which are also 15 yards + AFD if applicable.

Since it's not a UR foul, and therefore highly arguable that it is a tactical foul, one would wonder that it should only be called if it has an impact on the play. Ie: B player that made the INT is close to where the clip happened. If the B player is at mid-field when the clip happened, then what effect does a clip have on the play? The answer is none. In that case, the flag should come out for UR because a clip that far away likely does not have a tactical advantage, but it does carry a safety issue. Still 15 yards.

This is one Cdn foul I wish was promoted to the UR flavour regardless.

If B accepts A's foul, then B's clip, by rule, is not applied.

Mike, I couldn't agree with you more, they need to classify blocking from the rear as a UR foul. I know in the CFL it's classified as a major foul, but in amateur ball it isn't.

Now the only problem I see with that is that I know that in my association, the block from the rear is seldom called. Usually any contact from behind is classified as a push from the rear or illegal block, which carries a lesser penalty. Now I'm just wondering how many people will call an illegal block instead of a "clip" if it's classified as a UR foul? But I do know one thing, and I have done this, if a clip occurs but it doesn't affect the play, then I've called UR. Any contact from the rear is unnecessary and if it's away from the play then it's un-needed roughness, so that's how I justify calling a UR. Now if it affects the play or could possibly affect the play then I'll call an illegal block or blocking from the rear, depending on what happened.

Merry Christmas!!