Another Keep the Board Going Question
 

OK folks…here’s my first offering for the off-season board. It’s a day early. My goal is to attempt to address normal game situations rather than extreme ‘what-if’ stuff. However, I also intend to include a twist or two on my play to address the needs of the “Stump the Chump” bunch. Please indicate in your response whether you’re answering according to NCAA or Federation rules.

<b>PLAY:</b> A’s ball, 3/17 from A’s 10. Punter A10’s kick is blocked at A’s 3. It…
(a) rolls out of bounds at A’s 2
(b) rolls into A’s end zone and over the end line
(c) rolls into A’s end zone where it is recovered on the ground by A15
(d) rolls into A’s end zone where it is recovered on the ground by B76
(e) is recovered by A67 at A’s 1 yardline.

OK…those were the easier ones. Now for you “Stump the Chump” enthusiasts…

(f) is recovered jointly by A55 and B75 at A’s 2
(g) rolls toward the sideline where both teams let it lie believing it has gone out of bounds. The official eventually blows the play dead with the ball inbounds at A’s 3
(h) rolls into A’s endzone where it is jointly recovered by A15 and B56.
(i) It rolls to the endline but remains in the endzone. Neither team attempts to recover it. The covering official blows it dead.

(a) B's ball at A-2
(b) safety
(c) safety
(d) touchdown
(e) B's ball at A-1

(f) B's ball at A-2
(g) B's ball at A-3
(h) safety
(i) safety

[Edited by Warrenkicker on Dec 2nd, 2004 at 01:44 PM]

Re: Another Keep the Board Going Question
 

A. B's ball at the A2.
B. safety
C. safety
D. TD for B
E. B's ball at the A1

F. B's ball at the A2 - joint recovery after kick goes to B
G. B's ball at the A3 - unrecovered goes to B
H. Safety - joint recovery again
I. TD for B - backwards pass or fumble in opponents EZ not recovered is a TD.

I agree with Warrenkicker. NF rules.
On i., the force that put the ball in the endzone was the kick by A, not backward pass or fumble. Safety.

You're correct. Safety in I.
Fumble definition is "any loss of player possession other than by handling, passing, or legal kick."

I missed bullet H. I thought TD. I'm certain that I am incorrect here. Why?

I was thinking rule 5.1.3 e but the down didn't end in the field of play so I guess that's why I'd be wrong.

But where does it state whose ball it is (I forget th erule #)? I realize it's A's ball since team possession didn't change. So now that I read safety in your responses I'm thinking it's supposed to be handled as if A was a "fumbling" team and since there is simultaneous possession they technically retain possession, hence a safety.

I need help on this one. I would have blown that in a game.

Looks like MJT cleared it up (before I hit submit of course)

E: A's ball 4th and 25 @ 1 yard line.
G: A's ball 4th and 22 @ 3 yard line.
H: TD for B

NFHS

I agree with everything except (h) and (i);

I have a TD for B in (h)
I have a safety in (i)

Rule 6-2-7...When any scrimmage kick is out of bounds between the goal lines or becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possesion, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possesion, the ball is awarded to R.



[Edited by Patton on Dec 2nd, 2004 at 02:44 PM]

Darn it! I misred the definition of a fumble. My question remains. Why isn't it a TD for B?

So my complete ruling is (NFHS):

A. B's ball at the A2.
B. safety
C. safety
D. TD for B
E. B's ball at the A1

F. B's ball at the A2 - joint recovery after kick goes to B
G. B's ball at the A3 - unrecovered goes to B
H. TD for B
I. Safety

It should be a TD. I answered it safety and explained it as if it was a TD. 6-2-7 says ball is awarded to R if "any scrimmage kick becomes dead inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession." I believe the EZ still qualifies as inbounds doesn't it?

H. TD

Table 6-4: 1. Kick jointly recovered by R and K belongs to R.

8-2-1...Possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is always a TD

I have a TD for B in H.
Also take another look at E. A's ball @ the 1.

How can that be A's ball?

The kick occured on 3rd down.

E is B's ball cuz 6-2-7 says ball is awarded to R if "any scrimmage kick becomes dead inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession."

Doesn't matter, the ball was "kicked" not muffed. 6-2-7 says ball is awarded to R if "any scrimmage kick becomes dead inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession."

If it was muffed by the punter and we had joint possession or a recovery by A, then A ball for 4th down.

We're talking about E right? 6-2-3...Any kicker may catch or recover a scrimmage kick while it is in or behind the NZ...

K is in team possession during a kick. A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead by rule. R gains possession of the ball when a player of R catches or recovers the ball.

Re: Another Keep the Board Going Question
 

OK, lets try this again and see if I can do better

(a) R 1/goal @ A-2
(b) Safety, R awarded 2 points
(c) Safety, R awarded 2 points
(d) TD R
(e) K 4/26 @ A-1 clock on ready

(f) R 1/goal @ A-2
(g) R 1/goal @ A-3
(h) TD R
(i) TD R

MJT, where do you get joint possession out of:
"(e) is recovered by A67 at A’s 1 yardline."?

Re: Re: Another Keep the Board Going Question
 

Jim
(e) clock not on ready..... clock never stopped (hopefully)
(i) safety... never had a change of possession, ball is still in K team possession. And we're talking about a kick, and force, here.

Ok, kdf5 and Jim, I am out of wack, it is not a joint possession, so it would be A's ball at the 1 and 4th down in situation E. I am going to work on my adjusted final, hopefully correct answer.

G: A's ball 4th down @ the 3 yard line

Re: Another Keep the Board Going Question
 

My final answer, I think?!?!?


A. B's ball at the A2. Clock on the snap.
B. safety
C. safety
D. TD for B
E. A's ball from the A-1 4th-26. Clock on the snap.

F. B's ball at the A2 - joint recovery after kick goes to B. Clock on snap.
G. B's ball at the A3 - unrecovered goes to B. Clock on snap.
H. TD for B - joint recovery after kick goes to B
I. Safety, not a TD for R cuz it does not meet definition of a fumble.

Thanks to Jim S for referring to clock status. We need to try to remember to add this to our post, as the case book doesn't cover this important part of these situations.

No, because 6-2-7 says "ball is R's if any scrimmage kick becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines hwile no player is in possession."

I just read Case Book 6.2.3 Situation B. I knew that A could recover a kick in or behind the neutral zone and advance, but I never really thought of this situation on third down. I now agree that in (e) it is still A's ball.

So my FINAL ruling is:

So my complete ruling is (NFHS):

(a) B's ball at the A2.
(b) safety
(c) safety
(d) TD for B
(e) A's ball 4th and 26 from the A1
(f) B's ball at the A2 - joint recovery after kick goes to B
(g) B's ball at the A3 - unrecovered goes to B
(h) TD for B
(i) Safety

MJT, same answer as one to JN.
Clock in (e) does not start on snap, does not start on ready.....(HUH)... should never stop. There is no timing rule in FED that says we stop the clock after a scrimage kick.
We do stop it after a change of possession, not applicable to this case.
We stop it to award a new series, not applicable to this case.
We stop it for a variety of other reasons none of which apply to this play.

Thanks for the correction Jim. Your right, the clock never stopped in (e). That's what I meant by saying on the ready. (yah right) ;)
As for (i) , this isn’t the first time I’ve been confused by 6-2-7‘s “between the goal lines or...bla...bla...bla... inbounds anywhere”. Hopefully it’ll be the last. Safety all the way.

[Edited by James Neil on Dec 3rd, 2004 at 02:57 AM]

Wow. Missed which down it was. I see how (e) should still be A's ball.

I initially had (h) being a TD but then thought about it some more and found rule 7-4-3, confused myself, and edited my post.

You were right with the original thinking of TD. 7-4-3 does not apply, read rule Rule 6-2-7...When any scrimmage kick is out of bounds between the goal lines or becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possesion, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possesion, the ball is awarded to R.