Q#1: Kicking game question

[cmathews]

Kentref,
the player safety issue can be addressed with personal foul, if it is deemed to be a "shot" at the R player...I obviously am of the opinion that if it is not specifically illegal, then it is legal to touch the ball, if it is legal, then the BIB is legal as long as it isn't a personal foul...you also answer part of the question, you mention that K may have a right to touch the ball.....if they do then the BIB is legal....

[kentref]

Originally posted by cmathews
Kentref,
the player safety issue can be addressed with personal foul, if it is deemed to be a "shot" at the R player...I obviously am of the opinion that if it is not specifically illegal, then it is legal to touch the ball, if it is legal, then the BIB is legal as long as it isn't a personal foul...you also answer part of the question, you mention that K may have a right to touch the ball.....if they do then the BIB is legal....

Good point. I didn't think about the personal foul application. Thanks for bringing that up.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Dale Smith

I am now defending the side I was once offending. [/B]

MJT welcome to the dark side. lol
Kentref don’t forget that 9-3-5b says catch or recover a loose ball, which he may legally touch or possess. K is legally allowed to touch a kicked ball beyond the expanded neutral zone. The rules do not say that K must retain possession of the ball when the play is over.
Dale Smith

[/B][/QUOTE]

REPLY: I'll stay on the 'light' side, thank you very much. I still believe this block in the back is a foul because K is legally not able to touch or possess the ball at the time of the foul.

[cmathews]

Bob,
Where does it say it is illegal to touch the kick? As a matter of fact all you will find in the rule book is a whole lot of ways that K can legally touch the kick. They cannot posses it until R touches it without it being batted into them, but they can touch it all they want.

I agree that the NCAA specifically calls it illegal touching, but the Fed just calls it first touching, and specifically makes note that this is NOT a foul, but has ramifications similar to a penalty. I repeat it is NOT a foul if it is not a foul then it is legal isn't it??

[James Neil]

Originally posted by cmathews
I repeat it is NOT a foul if it is not a foul then it is legal isn't it??

No. K can’t legally touch this ball. If they do then we'll call it "first touching" and take it from there. NF 9-3-5b uses the words "Using hands and arms to contact an opponent above the waist in warding off a blocker, or when attempting to reach a runner, or catch or recover a loose ball which he may legally touch or possess".
See, it says “legally” touch or possess“. If he can legally touch this ball it just goes to reason he can also illegally touch it.

[cmathews]

James while I do respect your argument, where in the book does it say that it is a foul or illegal? I have on numerous occasions above stated the rules citation in the book that explicitly says it is NOT a foul....there is a section even on illegal touching, and that refers to a forward pass...there is nothing on illegal touching of a kick, and if it isn't illegal it must be legal.

[Warrenkicker]

I'm going to take a chance here. Maybe someone can come up with an exception.

It is always legal for any player to touch a grounded ball.

Below are examples of plays where players touch the ball and the foul associated with the play.

It is illegal touching for an offensive lineman to be the first to touch a forward pass behind the neutral zone. It is kick catch interference for K to catch or touch a free-kick in the air or for K to catch or touch a scrimmage kick with an R player in the area.

It is illegal participation for an A or K player to come from OOB on their own. It doesn't matter if they touch the ball or not.

A planned loose-ball play at the snap uses S19 for planned loose-ball infraction.

So it is legal for K to touch a grounded scrimmage kick. If there is a foul there is a flag and a penalty. There is a list of legal plays where there are results similar to penalty enforcements under 2-16-6. If these weren't similar to fouls and not fouls then they would be listed under a different area.

[cmathews]

Warrenkicker, I agree with you, welcome to the Dark side, or light side which ever side you happen to view as dark or light LOL this has been a fun discussion LOL....

[mcrowder]

Guys - it says that this is not a foul if it is done when K can legally POSSESS OR TOUCH the ball. If you are ruling that illegal/first touching is LEGAL, then at what time during live ball play can a defensive (or K team)player NOT legally touch the ball? Seems to me that it is EXACTLY this scenario that the rule is referring to, and the BIB is illegal because K cannot legally touch the ball.

[cmathews]

Mcrowder, could you please point to a rule that says first touching is illegal? Or can you point to a place that refers to illegal/first touching. There is a post above that very clearly points out when touching a ball is illegal, anyone can touch a grounded kick. Also the reference in the rules cited above that says that first touching is NOT a foul. There have been several rules cited on our side of the fence, it is you guys turn to cite rules in your favor LOL

[Dale Smith]

Cmathews we have another on our side.
Mcrowder a team K player is more or less a team A player. They are the team that put the ball in play. The play in question is a scrimmage kick. K is allowed to legally touch the ball beyond the expanded neutral zone. As far as the BIB goes, if the R player being blocked is near the ball and the team K player has a chance to touch the ball then the team R player is fair game provided the block is not a personal foul. Now if the team B player is a good distance from the ball and the team K player has no chance to touch the ball then we have a BIB.
Dale Smith

[James Neil]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Guys - it says that this is not a foul if it is done when K can legally POSSESS OR TOUCH the ball. If you are ruling that illegal/first touching is LEGAL, then at what time during live ball play can a defensive (or K team)player NOT legally touch the ball? Seems to me that it is EXACTLY this scenario that the rule is referring to, and the BIB is illegal because K cannot legally touch the ball.

EXACTLY !!! Welcome to the light !


BTW... I give up , trying to convince others that is

[cmathews]

James,
LOL I like that this discussion has stayed so good natured the whole time...now can you please point to a rule that says that first touching is either illegal or a foul? and if so please let me in on the penalty enforcement...

[Warrenkicker]

Originally posted by cmathews
Warrenkicker, I agree with you, welcome to the Dark side, or light side which ever side you happen to view as dark or light LOL this has been a fun discussion LOL....

Oh, I have been on the dark side since the start of page 2. I joined you way back then but have just been hiding in the shadows.

[mcrowder]

Well, I'm NCAA - so the fact that the rule is called ILLEGAL TOUCHING, implies to me that the touching is illegal... but maybe that's just me. The idea behind the rule is the same.

You didn't answer my question though.

The rule specifically says "legally allowed to touch or possess". If the rule was meant to be ruled on in the manner in which you are ruling, why wouldn't they include the disclaimer at all.... the "legally allowed to touch or possess" part is useless if players are ALWAYS allowed to touch the ball, and if the way you are ruling is correct, then they are ALWAYS allowed to legally touch the ball (kick in flight being about the only exception I can think of, and if this was the only time at which BIB is illegal by K, surely the rulewriters would have framed it more specifically). It seems to me that "legally allowed to touch" is SPECIFICALLY aimed at times when K is not legally allowed to touch the ball without ramifications - i.e. specifically THIS case.