Guys, Here in NJ we give a pre-test to see what officials are ready to become certified. Below is one question I had a few problems with. Tell me what you think?


---------------
A 1-10 @ B40. A3 runs a fly pattern down the right sideline. At the goal line he leaps for the ball grabs it and the first foot to return to the ground comes down in bounds. While he was in the air, one of his feet grazed the pylon, displacing it from its position. Ruling:

note: this is how it was worded (not by me).

-------------------

Are you in SJ by any chance (Meetings at W. Deptford?)

To answer your question you technically have a foul for illegal participation during loose ball play. Enforce 15 yards from previous spot, replay the down.

Remember the pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line. See definitions 2.28.1.

Now if you are in SJ ask Cliff or Jim how they would enforce this. Most people would simply call this an incomplete pass. How ever you enforce it you CAN'T award a TD.

The pylon is OOB.

If the player touches the ball while touching the pylon, he's OOB as well, and the catch is not good.

Hopefully, thye don't want you to call IP on this.

South Jersey guys making the test this year?

I don't think you have illegal participation on this. The question says nothing about the receiver touching out of bounds before the catch. The way I read it, he caught the ball and then touched the pylon. It's simply incomplete, out of bounds.

It is crazy to say the first foot touches in bounds and the...while in the air it hits the pylon.

It doesn't even say the player caught it?

It could be IP also....

ljudge.....BTW I am in Central Jersey Chapter...........

Yes, the south is making the test this year. I teach the cadet class in CJ/ Raritan district

I just thought this question was alittle off the wall. I think test questions cover about 10% of what might happen...just a thought...LOL

Here's the question (for convenience)...

A 1-10 @ B40. A3 runs a fly pattern down the right sideline. At the goal line he leaps for the ball grabs it and the first foot to return to the ground comes down in bounds. While he was in the air, one of his feet grazed the pylon, displacing it from its position.

OK - it says the "first foot to return to the ground." BUT BEFORE that first foot returned to the ground his foot grazed the pylon which is out of bounds. Now by definition of OOB, he's out of bounds. And, an A player can't go out of bounds and return (when his foot touched the ground). So TECHNICALLY (letter of the law) he has committed IP so a test question should indicate IP, BUT that would be nuts to make that call. I would flag incomplete. Now, if his foot hit the pylon and he came 3 yards in the endzone and caught the ball you may have no choice but to call IP. That's just my take on it.

Oops. "flag" incomplete??? My bad. "Call incomplete"

The pylon is OOB. It's not a catch until the player establishes possession while in bounds. If he touches the pylon before touching in bounds the pass is incomplete.

LJ - I think you're reading too much into this. I don't see where it says he went OOB and then back in again. I see the play the same as a player who leaps up for the ball along the sideline, catches the ball, and lands first with his right foot OOB and then left foot In Bounds. No flag, just incomplete.

Excellent point. I can certainly buy that. Just so I'm clear I posted I would call incomplete. But, last year (or 2 years ago) one of the reasons the rule was changed in the field markings section of the rules (to move the 2 hash pylons 2 yards off the end line) was to AVOID having the players committing IP by hitting the pylons, which by rule, makes the player OOB. When I first read the reason for the rule change I thought who the heck would call that any way. I believe the other reason they changed it was the BJ wouldn't trip over them covering the endline. But again, I would never call this play IP. In thinking back to why this rule was changed I said technically it's IP, perhaps I'm wrong. This is why I hate test questions like the one posed here.

The question isn't specific. We have an ordering issue.

Two possiblities.

The first one is:
1. Jumps
2. Touch Pylon
3. Makes Catch
4. Lands Inbounds

This would be IP.

The second possiblity is
1. Jumps
2. Makes Catch
3. Touches Pylon
4. Lands Inbounds.
INC Pass


It has to be the first option, IP, why would they even mention that the player landed inbounds if he touched the pylon.

If the receiver was touching the ball when his foot grazed the pylon, then the play is dead right then and there - you <b>can't</b> have illegal participation, because the play is already over. Incomplete pass.

If, on the other hand, the receiver touched the pylon, ceased touching the pylon, then caught the ball and came down inbounds (and that sequence had better be <i>damn</i> clear), you have to call illegal participation - otherwise it's a touchdown. Now, if the game is 42-0 in the fourth quarter and the losing team is on offense, then I conveniently didn't see the foot graze the pylon in the first place. But if the TD is relevant, then I have a flag.

I know it's a competition type thing, but the guys up here always complain about the test when they don't make it.

LJ - working any games this weekend?

When he caught the ball then touched the pylon the play is over NO IP ON THIS play.

Yes, working this weekend but not a playoff. I moved from LJ last year where we had Group IV 5 vs. a 4 (and a semi the year before) but moved to referee this year so I'm a rookie by position and have two rookies on my crew. So it's consolation time.

We have one crew up your way - Florence v. Burl City - should be a decent game.

I think everyone agrees if thats how you interpret the play but to me the play sounds like he touches the pylon before he touches the ball. Therefor IP.

REPLY: We have our first playoff game tonight in the Group 4 non-public school division (#1 St. Peter's vs. #8 Hudson Catholic). Paper says they're expecting 5,000 people---which is a big crowd in NJ. Stadium is on the Hudson River across from Manhattan. Cold and windy under normal conditions. Tonight...Weatherman doesn't seem to be cooperating. Add rain, and plenty of it, to the forecast!

I know the question is written weakly...So, it really isn't clear of OOB if the caught is firat or after it.

Thanks for everybody's input!

LJ- My Crew has Rahway @ Cranford tonight..the AD just called me to switch the game to sat due to the poor field conditions. (I will not work the game due to a leg injury).

Last year my crew did Hammington @ Delsea 2nd round play-off.

I had a 1-8 game (Lakeland/Ramsey) scheduled for tonight. That's been moved to tomorrow night.

We also picked up a 4-5 game (DePaul/Pingry) that was moved from tonight to tomorrow at noon.

Walt,
We did Pingry this year. They killed whoever they were playing that day..

Were you from?

I live in Wharton, Morris County.

I use to live in Wharton.

REPLY: Oh well...just found out that our game tonight has also been cancelled. Rescheduled for tomorrow night. Walt...I'm just down the road a piece from you, in Clinton Township.

How nice of them to name their township after our next president. :)

Snake-eyes - where in Wharton? When?

Bob, I know Clinton. You're not far.

Actually I believe technically it was Dover, but it was on a miltiary base. Picatinny?

I know Picatinny well. I'm just a few houses into Wharton, near the Dover line.

This question is word for word from the NFHS Football Guide 2004, from page 12 and is ruled IP according to the guide.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kdf5

This question is word for word from the NFHS Football Guide 2004, from page 12 and is ruled IP according to the guide. [/B][/QUOTE



What book is the "NFHS Football Guide 2004"? I guess, I don't have this book?

We got the guide from our state association. It's printed by the Fed every year I think and given to us at our rules meeting. It usually covers the new rules, editorial changes, etc. for the upcoming season along with other articles about the game, a test, etc.

kdf5,

cool, I don't think I have one of those. Thanks for the info. By the way I am Thomas in NJ (better know as tpaul). Glad to meet you!

You too! I'm Kevin from Nebraska. I've pasted the link to the guide. It's actually published by Referee magazine.

http://www.referee.com/books/books/bfbnl04.htm

Awesome Kevin, Thanks!