Pass by A1 to A2.
B1 commits pass interference
B2 intercepts the pass and is tackled inbounds.
Team A accepts the penalty.
Mark off 15 yards, automatic first down.
When do you start the clock?

Please give more answer than just "on the ready" or "on the snap."

thoughts?

On the snap.

What did the clock stop for? A change of possession.
When would the clock have started if not for the penalty? On the snap.

SouthGARef: that was my thinking also. and that's what i told the headcoach on my sideline last friday night. and then my whitehat started the clock on the ready...i immediately killed the clock to go and talk about it.

I thought it was pretty straightforward.

People in my association were saying that the penalty killed the clock, not the change of possession. And I brought up the fact that if Team A declines the penalty (for some unknown reason), then you would start the clock on the snap.

My whitehat's exact words on friday were, "completed pass inbounds, and A is keeping possession, therefore on the ready"

I still disagree with that.

Canadian Ruling
 

Before the 3-minute warning: on the ready.
After the 3-minute warning: on the snap.

Clock stopped to deal with the penalty after which, team-A retains the ball. Start it on the ready. Had the pass been incomplete, then it would be on the snap.

As you say, if team-A declined the foul, it would be team-Bs ball and since they are awarded a new series, the clock would be on the snap.. That did NOT happen and has no bearing on what happens when accepting this foul.

You are correct! How can they argue the fact that if there was not a penalty, the COP would cause the clock to start on the snap. That is as straight forward as it gets. Your white hat is being stubborn. Will he listen to your reasoning?

Still say on the snap.

The way I've always been taught with clock issues is that you act as if no penalty occured on the play--no matter what the result is of the penalty.

The clock should start on the ready. The fact that there was a change of possession is irrelevant. If you look at the list of things that cause the clock to start on the snap in rule 3, "change of possession" is not one of them. If B is awarded a new series, then the clock will start on the snap. In this play, B was not awarded a new series, therefore, start the clock on the ready. From an old thread on this board, if B intercepts, B fumbles on the runback, and A recovers inbounds, 1st and 10 for A - start the clock on the ready. Here there are 2 change of possessions and we still start on the ready.

3-4-2...The clock starts on the ready...

a. For an official's time out, except if B's awarded a new series or either team's awarded a new series following a legal kick.

b. Because the ball has become dead following any foul provided in either a. or b:

3. The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped.

If an interception stops the clock without the penalty, then rule 3-4-2 says you start on the snap.

But jack015, the reason, in your fumble example above, the clock did not stop at the end of the play was that A was in possession at the end of the play. It doesn't matter how many times possssion changed during the play, A started with it and A ended with it, so the clock keeps going if they are inbounds.
The point on the post is, since B was in possession at the end of the down, the clock was stopped for the COP. That is what stopped the clock, not the penalty, so no matter what, the clock will start on the snap.

REPLY: Federation and NCAA rules differ on this question (surprise...surprise)!

FEDERATION: (jack015 hit the nail on the head) The clock will start on the READY. Remember that the clock starts on the snap NOT for a change of possession, but when B is awarded a new series. Was B awarded a new series? No, because NF 5-1-2 says that a new series is awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down. So, as long as the penalty is accepted, B will not be awarded a new series. Hence, the only thing that stopped the clock was indeed the foul.

NCAA: The clock will start on the SNAP. NCAA concurs that the clock starts on the snap when B is awarded a new series. However, unlike Fed, NCAA rules award a new series to the team in possession if a change of possession occurs during the down. So since there was a change of possession, B is awarded a new series and that's why the clock stopped. Hence, it will begin again on the SNAP. This is the fundamental difference between NCAA and Fed rules.

mcrowder and theisey...keep me honest on the NCAA rule here.

[Edited by Bob M. on Nov 3rd, 2004 at 04:12 PM]

I agree 100% with MJT. You always stop the clock after a penalty. But it's the action that caused the down to end (the end of the play after the interception) that determines ready or snap because you always stop the clock after an INT.

In the double fumble scenario, the fact that A ended up with the ball means that the action that stopped the clock was the end of the run, still in A's possession. Therefore you start the clock on the ready just like you would do if A never fumbled.

The change of possession that jack015 claims is missing in the rules is covered in 3-4-2-3b.

That is correct BobM. Under NCAA rules we stopped the clock to award a 1st down for team-B. Then we say, Opps because their first down is canceled because of the penalty. Team-A retains the ball. However, the clock for team-A is on the SNAP.

NF doesn't handle it that way. They would start if on the RFP.

Just another one of those (how many again?) rules differences.

The action that caused the down to end was the the player being tackled inbounds. This does not cause the clock to stop. So start it on the ready!

Agree with Andrew. Had the player gone OOB, the clock would have stopped for that. But, the player was tackled inbounds and thus, although the clock had to be stopped to handle the foul, we consider the inbounds tackle to cause the clock to restart on the ready. No need to complicate matters.

Great discussion, but the clock has to start on the snap.

You have to ask yourself, why did the clock stop? If the answer was because of the penalty, then you start it on the ready. If it was stopped because of the result of the play, then it starts on the snap.

Another example...a running play for a TD, but the offense held during the play. The clock stopped because of the ball crossing the goal line. You bring the ball back, replay the down, and start the clock on the snap because it was not the penalty that stopped it.

I don't know about you guys but I always stop the clock after an INT. 3-4-2 says you start on the ready unless the action that causes the down to end doesn't also stop the clock.

The converse is also true and that is that you start on the snap when the action that caused the down to end does stop the clock. B wasn't awarded a new series, but that's not the point. The INT stops the clock, always.

99% of the time you would start the clock on the snap after an INT (ball dead inbounds), but not because of the INT. You are starting on the snap because 99% of the time you award a new series to B after the INT. Not so in this play. An INT is not one of the reasons given in rule 3 to start the clock on the snap.

In this play, you have an administrative stoppage of the clock to enforce the foul, not to award B a new series. What you have here is an administrative stoppage to enforce a foul and award A a new series, therfore start on the ready.

Read the rule. Part 3. of the rule says you start on the ready except when the action that caused the down to end (being tackled after an INT) doesn't also stop the clock, Do you stop the clock after an INT? Part 3. is a catch all for various situations that either do or don't stop the clock.

What do you do after an incomplete pass? You start on the snap, right? So does the action that ends the down (an incompletion) also cause the clock to stop? If that's the case then the INT in this play does the same thing to the clock as an incomplete pass. You start on the snap. A new series for B or not has absolutely nothing to do with this play because it's what comes after or doesn't come after stopping the clock. It's all about what stops the clock.

AGREE with those who say ON THE READY. Read what Bob M posted. A new series is awarded only after considering any act that occured DURING the down....

Clock starts on the snap only if B is awarded a new series (and this can only occur after we consider any act that occured during the down).

In the play in question, B was NOT awarded a new series. Yes they intercepted the ball and WOULD have had a new series. But they are not AWARDED a new series because they fouled during the down nulifying the new series they would have gotten.

Those of you who are quoting Rule 3-4-2b-3 ("The action that causes the down to end did not also cause the clock to stop") are forgetting how a down ends. A down ends when the ball becomes dead. In this play, how did the ball become dead? A player was tackled inbounds. The interception does not cause the ball to become dead. The change of possession is simply an official's timeout and NOT what caused the down to end.




[Edited by mikesears on Nov 4th, 2004 at 08:29 AM]

Fellas, the rule asks what action STOPS THE CLOCK? What stops the clock in this play? The fact that there was an interception stops the clock. That's as far as you need to go to determine snap or ready by the rule.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. It IS NOT "what stops the clock" that determines when we start it again. It is what causes the down to end that determines when we start the clock. The down doesn't end when the ball is intercepted. It ends when the ball becomes dead. If dead inbounds, we simply have an official's timeout. Then we have to ask if B is awarded a new series. Was B given a new series? Nope (unless A declines the penalty).


[Edited by mikesears on Nov 4th, 2004 at 08:37 AM]

REPLY: For those saying to start the clock on the snap, how would you handle the clock on this play? PLAY: A, 4-5 from B's 40. A runs to B's 38 where he is tackled. During the run, B is detected incidentally grasping the runner's face mask. RULING: After enforcement, it will be A's ball, 1-10 from B's 33. Clock starts on the _______ ?

By my count, 4 of us think snap and 7 of us think ready.

JRut, where are you? I know that all of us would like your take on this subject.

Excellent question to make the point. Good job Bob.

What if A ran out of bounds? Does the clock stop when he runs out of bounds? What if A throws an interception? Does the clock stop following an interception? What if A throws an incompletion? Does the clock stop following and incompletion? By you ready for play advocates you would start the clock on the ready after administering a penalty following an incompete pass. Is that how you do that?

3-4-2b. says (the clock starts on the ready) following ANY foul, with the stipulation ("provided") that in either part a. or part b:
The action that caused the down to end (did the penalty cause the down to end? Fundamental III. 2. says no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead, so what action caused the ball to become dead? B was tackled after INTERCEPTING A's pass, right?) doesn't also cause the clock to be stopped. Does an interception cause the clock to be stopped? Why are you guys treating stopping the clock after an interception different than stopping the clock after an incompletion. The rule asks "what stopped the clock"? A being tackled inbounds doesn't stop the clock. The clock stoppage to administer the penalty is already provided for in the rule, so. what if A fouls (the rule says ANY foul) during an incomplete pass? Bob, when would you start the clock in that scene?

OK. Now I'm really confused. Since the acceptance of the penalty negated the change of possession, do we say we have a completed pass (thus, starting the clock on the RFP), or an incomplete pass (thus, starting the clock on the snap)?

Serg

We have an interception. Please give me a one word answer to this question: Do you stop the clock after an interception?

You are getting to hung up on the phrase, "The action that causes the down to end did not also stop the clock".

After a change of possession, we simply have an officials timeout. The clock starts on the ready after an official's timeout UNLESS something else happened to stop the clock. Runner out of bounds, incomplete pass, ball out bounds, etc.

An officials' timeout is NEVER reason enough to start on the snap UNLESS B is awarded a new series or EITHER team is awarded a new series following a legal kick play.





[Edited by mikesears on Nov 4th, 2004 at 09:42 AM]

REPLY: I'll be glad to answer your questions...after you answer mine :) In the play I posted, when would you start the clock?

"You are getting to hung up on the phrase, "The action that causes the down to end did not also stop the clock".

I do get hung up on interpreting the rules correctly.

"After a change of possession, we simply have an officials timeout. The clock starts on the ready after an official's timeout UNLESS something else happened to stop the clock. Runner out of bounds, incomplete pass, ball out bounds, etc".


Don't forget an interception.

On the ready, in both cases. Add my vote to that side.

Consider this - is there a play in which an interception does not lead to starting the clock on the snap? The answer is yes. Therefore, it is not the interception itself that caused you to start it on the snap. It's something else (in this case, the awarding of a new series to B) - and in the case of the play being discussed, you do not have that.

Start it on the ready.

Those claiming to start the clock on the ready are missing the secondary part of stopping the clock...the reason for stopping the clock also includes the provision for starting it.

An incomplete pass stops the clock AND stipulates that it's started again on the next snap.

A loose ball out-of-bounds stops the clock AND requires the clock to start on the next snap.

An intercepted ball that is in B's possession at the end of the play, causes the clock to stop and re-start on the snap.

An intercepted ball that is in A's possession at the end of the play, causes the clock to stop and re-start on the ready.

Every stoppage of the clock already has a rule for when it's to re-start. You do not break that rule because of penalty enforcement!

If the end of the play did not call for a clock stoppage, and a penalty occured during the down, then you have a clock stoppage for penalty enforcement which requires you start the clock on the ready.

There should be no controversy here!! The original play for this posting had the clock stop because B was in possession after an interception. So right then and there, the clock is set to re-start on the snap. You can't change that just because a penalty occured during the down. It restarts on the snap.

kdf - you don't stop the clock because of an interception!

Since when?

My Quote
"You are getting to hung up on the phrase, "The action that causes the down to end did not also stop the clock".


I do get hung up on interpreting the rules correctly.


Hung up was a bit incorrect. I think you are interpretting the rule incorrectly. I'm not trying to be argumentative but you have not interpretted them correctly. Seven of us interpret the rules to mean it starts on the ready for play. Just because you believe differently doesn't automatically make your interpretation correct.

[/i]My Quote
"After a change of possession, we simply have an officials timeout. The clock starts on the ready after an official's timeout UNLESS something else happened to stop the clock. Runner out of bounds, incomplete pass, ball out bounds, etc".[/i]


Don't forget an interception.

I hope you don't stop the clock after an interception. I hope you wait until the ball is dead. It is the ACTION that causes the ball to become dead (i.e that causes the down to end) to determines when we start the clock.

Question: What actions cause the ball to become dead? Of those actions, which cause the clock to start on the snap and which ones cause the clock to start on the ready?



[/b]

Mike: you know that I mean stopping the clock after the interceptor is down. I've said so a couple of times here.

Let's take a look at the reasoning behind the rule to help further our case for ready-for-play.

I believe the rulebook used to start the clock on the RFP even after a change of posession. I believe the NF changed the rule to say that it should start on the snap after a change of possesion becaues they felt A should be allowed to substitue without time running off the clock.

In this case, NEITHER team will need to substitute because the foul by B negated their own interception. A's offense will still be out there. B's defense will still be out there. Neither team will be required to do massive substitutions.

I still haven's seen you answer to my question. What actions cause a down to end? Of those, which ones cause the clock to stop?

Mike: Like Bob said I'll answer yours when you answer mine.

I have. We don't stop the clock after an interception PER RULE. We stop the clock for an officials' timeout after an interception when the player is down. Do we ALWAYS start the clock on the snap after an official's timeout?

this conversation seems to remind me a lot of the "discussion" we had at my local meeting on Tuesday night when I brought up this question.


I am more inclined to start it on the ready after reading many of these posts...HOWEVER, i believe there needs to be a casebook play on this to get an official ruling from the NFHS

OK Bob. Don't see where anybody else answered your question, so I will.

Clock starts on the whistle (RFP).


Your turn Bob. :)

Serg

VA - what makes Bob's scenario and the original scenario different (with regards to when you start the clock)...

Nothing.

ksf - Since When? Since a few years ago. The timing of when we stopped doing that is irrelevant to the discussion. Show me the rule that says you stop the clock after an interception and start it on the snap. You can't. There isn't one. There is, in fact, a case in the CB in which you don't. So obviously it's something else causing you to start it on the ready after 99% of the interceptions. That thing is the one thing that is missing from the original scenario here. So you don't start it on the snap in the CB play, and you don't start it on the snap on the original scenario.

I am doing some digging in the books, thinking, and bouncing back and forth before I come back with my big reply, but Bob, your question is not remotely the same. There is no COP, which is the "potential" problem here. Obviously in your question, it starts on the RFP, but there was no COP, so that is a no brainer.

When we took the Part II test in GA (made a 94, wohoo, not so wohoo as my goal was to break my score last year... a 94) the test giver guy (official name ;) ) discussed this very play. Said everyone was disagreeing (about 60/40 on the RFP) and that the NFHS wouldn't touch the question. Find that hard to believe, but that's what he said.

I pulled together all the pertinent rules to try to make my point. I'm sorry for the length of this post, but I am very passionate about getting things right. I don't mean to offend anyone. If I have, I offer my apologies.



Here are the pertinent rules.



Here is the rule about when a ball becomes dead 4-2-4:

The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:

A. When a runner goes out of bounds, is held so his forward progress is stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground.

B. When a live ball goes out of bounds.

C. When any forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete or is simultaneously caught by opposing players.

D. When any legal free kick or scrimmage kick (1) Which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded scoring attempt, breaks the plane of R’s goal line. (2) Which is a scoring attempt, while in flight touches a K player in R’s end zone, or after breaking the plane of R’s goal line has apparently failed. EXCEPTION: If a scoring attempt kick touches an upright or crossbar or an R player in the end zone and caroms through the goal, the touching is ignored and the attempt is successful.

E. When any loose ball (1) Is simultaneously caught or recovered by opposing players. (2) Is on the ground motionless and no player attempts to secure possession.(3) Touches, or is touched by, anything inbounds other than a player, substitute, replaced player, an official, the ground or authorized equipment. In this case the ball will be put in play in accordance with the procedure for an inadvertent whistle as in 4-2-3b.

F. When the kickers catch or recover any free kick anywhere, and when the kickers catch or recover a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone and when the kickers are first (i.e., before any touching by the receivers) to touch a scrimmage kick after it has come to rest beyond the neutral zone and between the goal lines.

G. Following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal given by any member of the receiving team when a scrimmage kick or free kick is caught or recovered by any member of the receiving team beyond, in or behind the neutral zone.

H. When a touchdown or field goal occurs.

I. During a try if B secures possession or as soon as it is apparent that a kick has failed to score.

J. When an official sounds his whistle inadvertently.

K. When the helmet comes completely off a player who is in possession of the ball.


By rule, the action that caused the down to end was a player being tackled inbounds. Not one of these says a down ends when the ball is intercepted. So we must have a different reason for stopping the clock after an intercetpion. We do. We now have an official's timeout.

Rule 3-5-7 speaks about officials's timeouts.

An official’s time-out occurs during a dead ball without a time-out being charged to either team:

(a) For measurement of a possible first down.
(b) When a first down is declared.
(c) Following a change of team possession.
(d) When captains and coaches are notified of the time remaining.
(e) For a player who appears to be injured.
(f) For a player in need of equipment repair.
(g) To dry or change the game ball.
(i) For unusual heat or humidity which may create a health risk to the players.
(j) When a coach-referee conference concerning the misapplication of a rule results in the referee altering his ruling. (See 3-5-11)
(k) After a foul, to administer the penalty.
(l) For any unusual delay in getting the ball ready for play.
(m) For a TV/radio time-out that is permitted and granted as authorized by state association policy.
(n) For a one-minute intermission between the first and second and the third and fourth periods and following a try, successful field goal or safety and prior to the succeeding free kick.


Rule 3-4-4 speaks about when we stop the clock (It does not address starting it):

The clock shall be stopped when:
(a) The down ends following a foul.
(b) An official’s time-out is taken.
(c) A charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.
(d) The period ends.
(e) The ball is out of bounds.
(f) A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete.
(g) A score or touchback occurs.
(h) A fair catch is made.
(i) An inadvertent whistle is sounded.


Rule 3-4-2 speaks about starting the clock:

The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped:
(a) For an official’s time-out, other than when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.
(b) Because the ball has become dead following any foul provided in either (a) or (b):
(1)There has been no charged time-out during the dead-ball interval.
(2) The down is not an extension of a period or a try.
(3) The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped.
(c) Because of an inadvertent whistle.


In 3-4-2b3, the "ACTION" that ended the down was a ball carrier being tackled. An interception does not cause a down to end. It is an official's timeout because of a possible change of possession. We then factor in actions that occured during the down and the interception likely WON'T stand. So B is not awarded a new series. If B is not awarded a new series and the action of a player being tackled didn't stop the clock, we MUST start the game clock on the ready-for-play.

REPLY: You're correct in one thing...it starts on the ready. But wait a minute...didn't we stop the clock after the 4th down since A didn't make the line to gain? Isn't there a change of possession if there was no foul? Just like the original play. So each play has a change of possession--the original one via an interception, the mine via A's failure to make the line to gain.

Changing sides
 

I think I may have found some things to put this discussion at rest.
3-4-3b says "snap" if B is awarded new series - did not happen.
3-5-7c says officials TO following a change in team possession - we did have that. After penalty consideration, B not given new series, so don't have to start on snap as stated in 3-4-3b. Tackle was IB, so that would indicate RFP.
Casebook 3.4.3D says "With 3rd-10: (a) A1 fumbles the ball and B recovers, or (b) A1's pass is intercepted by B. When will the clock start? RULING: Since a change of possession has occured in both (a) and (b) <b>and</b> B is awarded a new series of downs, the clock will start on the snap.
<b> This "and" in the casebook was a big one in my changing sides to the RFP. That "and" would not have to be in there, but with it being there indicates to me that for it to start on the snap, both the COP "and" new series for B must occur. </b>
I now say RFP.
It is discussions like this that make me love these boards. The arguing back and forth gets you in the book and keeps us fresh. Thanks!!

Add another vote for the RFP. Great topic and very professionally argued.

I'm still a snap believer.

Any time you have a penalty, ask yourself...when would the clock start without the penalty?

And that's your answer as to when to start it, after the penalty enforcement.

Gee, this is getting fun. Actually, there is a scenario in the casebook. Look at 3.4.3 SITUATION D

Serg

That is what I said changed my mind a few posts above.
Casebook 3.4.3D says "With 3rd-10: (a) A1 fumbles the ball and B recovers, or (b) A1's pass is intercepted by B. When will the clock start? RULING: Since a change of possession has occured in both (a) and (b) and B is awarded a new series of downs, the clock will start on the snap.
This "and" in the casebook was a big one in my changing sides to the RFP. That "and" would not have to be in there, but with it being there indicates to me that for it to start on the snap, both the COP "and" new series for B must occur.
I now say RFP.

Yeah, I was too. Until....

4-3...The clock shall start with the snap......if the clock was stopped because:.....
b. B is awarded a new series.

Since B was not awarded a new series, and the runner was tackled in bounds, I now see where clock starts at the RFP.

Gee, I had an easier time voting this past Tuesday. :)

Serg

[Edited by VaASAump on Nov 4th, 2004 at 12:20 PM]

Clock starts on the Ready-for-play
 

The confusion by some of the newer officials is simple.

The down ended with B in control of the football. 2-32-1
The down ended with B in possession of the football. 2-32-1
The down ended with B in Team possession of the football. 2-32-2
But wait...
B did not gain possession with "Clean Hands" as they fouled prior to gaining final possession 10-2-2
<b>B was not awarded a new series</b> 3-4-3b

The result of the play originally asked by Terpzebra is as follows:
A is awarded an automatic first down due to the DPI 7-5-10
The clock was stopped for an officials timeout, <b>after a foul to administer a penalty 3-5-7j</b>
<i>I am fully aware we would have stopped the clock anyway because B had intercepted the football,
<b>HOWEVER</b>, <u>the penalty flag trumps the stopage for change of possession.</u></i>
After the officials sort it out, <u>B is NOT awarded a new series</u>.
Therefore...
<b>The clock shall start <u>on the ready for play</b></u> 3-4-2

Those who quoting 3-4-2 are correct in their analysis and then incorrect in the final judgment.

3-4-2 says to start the clock on the ready, unless certain things have happened, in which case you start on the snap. These things are:
1) B has a new series, or
2) A or B has a new series after a legal kick, or
3) there was a charged time out, or
4) it is an extension of the period, or
5) it is a try, or
6) the clock was stopped due to the action at the end of the previous play.

We are all acknowledging that it was proper to stop the clock for an official's time out due to a change in team possession. No one is suggesting that the clock should have kept on running.

Therefore, this falls into one of the exceptions and this 26-year R stands with his decision to start the clock on the snap.

rdfox - which of the 6 exceptions you listed are you saying applies here. I don't see this scenario listed.

Bob, please tell me you are putting this one forth only for discussion purposes. 5.1.2b, 5.2.1, 5.2.2

It's a bit like saying Team A would be wearing their blue jerseys if they hadn't worn the white ones.

REPLY: Yep...discussion only...just to point out an inconsistency in some folks' thinking.

I'm also looking for the scenario.

The clock was properly stopped as an officials time out because of the action at the end of the play; specifically, the tackling of B who possessed the ball (a change in team possession).

It is therefore, by rule 3-4-2 (b)3, this same action that does not allow the clock to start until the snap, regardless of whether a penalty was involved.

The logic that says the clock should start on the ready would require you to conclude that the clock should not have been stopped in the first place. But the clock has to stop when the ball became dead, and therefore, it has to only start on the snap.

A change in team possession is not technically the reason you're starting on the snap --- it's the awarding of a new series to B. Look at the rule again - change in team possession is not there - awarding of a series is. Since you have no award of a new series to B, this scenario does NOT fit into #6 of the exceptions.

To Bob M.:

1) The ruling does not have to jive with 3-4-2a because 3-4-2b has subsections 1, 2 and 3 that relate to both (a) and (b),

2) I contend that the inbounds tackling of B who is in possession of the ball is an action that requires an officials time out due to the change of team possession. It is not two separate events. This is probably the source of the difference between the "Ready" people and the "Snap" people.

3) As for the "logic" involved, I'm using the end result as a reality check. If we started the clock on the ready after a penalty enforcement, we are declaring that the penalty was the only reason the clock stopped. But the covering official stopped the clock because of something other than the penalty (the truth is, he may not have even known there was a flag, but stopped the clock properly anyway). This holds true for any penalty enforcement. In my last posting, I was not referring to anytime we start the clock on the ready, only when we start the clock on the ready after a penalty. Sorry for my not being clear.

To mcrowder:

The three subsections in 3-4-2b refer to both (a) and (b) so you do not have to have the awarding of a new series for B to have one of the exceptions apply.

REPLY: rdfox...one last question. I posted this a few pages back. I'm not sure you saw it. Please fill in the blank...

PLAY: A, 4-5 from B's 40. A runs to B's 38 where he is tackled. During the run, B is detected incidentally grasping the runner's face mask. RULING: After enforcement, it will be A's ball, 1-10 from B's 33. Clock starts on the _______ ?

Ahh, I smell a trap...

The fourth down play ends short of the line-to-gain, and we stop the clock because it appears that A had not reached the line-to-gain.

However, alas, we have a penalty. Lo and behold, A has indeed reached the line-to-gain after the distance measurement, so the clock stoppage was not for B being awarded a new series, it was only for the movement of the chains.

Start the clock on the ready.

+_+ NCAA: on the snap.

Gentlemen: I come to you hat in hand and a repentent rule book sinner. I have seen the error of my ways. Please change my vote from snap to ready and as punishment I will work all of your peewee and 8th grade games next year.

Let's go back to the original post. B intercepts, B interferes. The interception is an official's TO. The actions that stop the clock are in 3-4-4 and are directly related to 3-4-2-3b such as going OB, scoring, incompletion. The INT isn't one of them, it's just an official's TO. Awarding a new series after the INT gets the snap start but not a INT called back by a foul. The clock starts on the ready. Great discussion, thanks for opening my eyes to a long held and incorrect interpretation.

I too have been swayed. I must repent for being wrong.

Clock will start on the RFP.

Still not convinced here about starting the clock on the ready for play.

Try this scenario...A punts the ball and B makes a fair catch. A is flagged for holding on the line of scrimmage. B accepts the penalty to make A re-kick. When does the clock start?

Based on all of my previous logic, I say on the snap.

But now you have totally changed the play and the reason for stopping the clock. This is covered in a different rule subsection.

The NCAA answer is easy... On the SNAP.

REPLY: You certainly did smell a trap! Why did you stop the clock after the 4th down? Wasn't it because A didn't make the line to gain, and therefore the ball is now going over to B? True, there is a foul to dispose of, but you would have stopped the clock anyway for the officials time out. And you said in an earlier post:

And clearly in my play by your logic, if there was no foul, you should start the play on the snap since B would be awarded a new series. But yet you said start it on the ready. What's fundamentally different between the originally posted play and the one I posted? Nothing really. In each, we initially stop the clock with an official's time out in anticipation of awarding B a new series. However, in both, a foul against B supersedes this and no new series is awarded. The fact that one play has the COP occurring <u>during</u> the down and the other has the COP occurring at the conclusion of the down is really immaterial. In both plays, we're initially stopping the clock because of an apparent change of possession and in anticipation of awarding B a new series. If we <u>do</u> award B the new series, start it on the snap; if we <u>don't</u> award B a new series, start it on the ready--unless of course the previous down ended with an incomplete pass, ball OOB, score...

Your logic and interpretation of the timing rules is 100% correct...for NCAA, but Federation is different, and in my humble opinion, I think you've got it wrong for Fed.

We may just need to agree to disagree.

The Supreme Court would be impressed by the arguments presented here. However, politicians would be annoyed by the extensive use of logic here!

This is one of the things I love about FB officiating (probably other sports, too, but I only do high school football, by choice)...after 26 years on the field, you still have perplexing and intriguing items to debate.

Thanks to all your professionalism and courtesy on this. We have a three-hour drive this afternoon to a playoff game. My crew will enjoy this one!

REPLY: Congratulations on the assignment and best of luck. Our playoffs begin next weekend. Just don't start the clock on the snap after an interception unless B gets a new series !
<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSzeb02822' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_72.gif' alt='Too Funny' border=0></a>

Wow
 

I am saddened that a<i> "26-year R" </i>can't admit he has made an interpretation error and can continue to insist <i>"this falls into one of the exceptions"</i> but can't find his mythical exception anywhere in the rules publications. Additionally, when some of the his peers point out his shortcomings, he still <i>"stands with his decision to start the clock on the snap".</i>

What's this? If you can't prove your point, change the subject?
Because the <b>fair catch</b> was made the clock shall start on the snap. Same answer if the ball went OOB or into the endzone.
Please note, FAIR CATCH, BALL OOB, INCOMPLETE PASS, are all action that caused the clock to be stopped and therefore the clock SHALL start on the snap.

You may notice that an interception <b> gained illegally </b> (or without clean hands) is not listed here. Therefore, the action of the original play in this post did not cause the clock to stop, and furthermore, <b>since B was not awared a new series,</b> the clock <b>SHALL</b> start on the snap!

Finally, if you are still convinced you are right and the rest of the world is wrong, you should contact your state rules interpreter for an interpretation. Then, when you are convinced he is wrong, contact Jerry Diehl. Jerry is the NFHS rules book editor and he can be reached at 317-972-6900 or e-mail him at [email protected].

Please shall your response from Jerry...





[Edited by KWH on Nov 5th, 2004 at 01:30 PM]

To those who say "snap" please answer this question.

What "ACTIONS" cause a down to "end"?

Of the "ACTIONS" that cause a down to end, which ones of those stop the clock?

I think we've converted nearly all of the SNAP crowd - is there anyone left over there?

You will be assimilated.... Resistance is Futile.

Whoaaa Nelli... before you all start mass emailing Jerry Diehl, you better go through your state interpretor. At least, that's the word out my way.
It came down from out top man last year NOT do directly contact the NF.
Don't know the exact reason, but it was clear to not do it.

Now if he is your good buddy or you are on his preferred email list, then by have a go.

Okay, so I admit I use some of these posts to keep the crew sharp. This is one I used.
We have a comic on the crew who through email came up with two answers. The first one was "Whenever the referee winds his arm!" The second was "When the clock operator starts it!"
The deal is, whoever can not answer the question has to chip in for refreshment after the game. Boy is he trying to get off easy. We'll see tonight! :D