sleeper play

[cjb75]

team A has the ball, calls time out , 5 seconds remaining in the first half.
the coach goes to the team on the fourty yard line.
the 11th player appears to walk off the field, but stops 2 yards from the side line, never leaving the field.
time out is over. team A breaks the huddle and quickly snaps the ball throwing a bomg to the "sleeper".
question: is this play legal?
must every player break from the huddle?

[mcrowder]

No, but don't they have to be between the numbers at the RFP?

EDIT - Actually, I seem to remember reading here that in FED, it's not the numbers, but they have to be within 15 yards of the ball at the RFP. Is that right, Fed guys?

[Edited by mcrowder on Nov 3rd, 2004 at 01:32 PM]

[SouthGARef]

Yup. Must be within 15 yards of the ball sometime after the RFP. Either way, they're intentionally doing it to gain an advantage--thus it's illegal.

[Edited by SouthGARef on Nov 3rd, 2004 at 01:42 PM]

[Doc-WI]

The Sleeper Play is DEAD. RIP

There is no way around the rules to legally run this play. Yes, we have NFHS rule:7-2-1 that says players must be within 15 yds of the ball after the RFP and that helps.
But the main rule to keep in mind is Illegal Participation 9-6-4c.

No substitution or pretended substitution can be deceiving to the opponents. It is the responsibility of the substituting team to do so in such a manner as not to be confusing or deceptive.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck, it a SLEEPER PLAY. Call it.

NCAA rules concur.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by cjb75
team A has the ball, calls time out , 5 seconds remaining in the first half.
the coach goes to the team on the fourty yard line.
the 11th player appears to walk off the field, but stops 2 yards from the side line, never leaving the field.
time out is over. team A breaks the huddle and quickly snaps the ball throwing a bomg to the "sleeper".
question: is this play legal?
must every player break from the huddle?

NF 7-2-1 . After the ball is ready for play, each player of A must have been, momentarily, within 15 yards of the ball before the snap. That’s just a formation foul for this play and only carry a 5 yard penalty. What I think it deserves is an unsportsman-like for using a pretend substitution to gain an unfair advantage. Tell the coach something like “Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However.... This isn’t one of them “

[cjb75]

further details,
the ball is on the hash mark, the player returns to the huddle, coach calls time out, th eplayer walks towards the sudeline, stopping 2 yards in bounds. the coach finished the time out with 10 players in a huddle. the paly starts quickly. legal.
i hear you saying by rule 9-6-4c, the key here is the intent to deceive?
is that right?

[James Neil]

Originally posted by cjb75
further details,
the ball is on the hash mark, the player returns to the huddle, coach calls time out, th eplayer walks towards the sudeline, stopping 2 yards in bounds. the coach finished the time out with 10 players in a huddle. the paly starts quickly. legal.
i hear you saying by rule 9-6-4c, the key here is the intent to deceive?
is that right?

right, no way is this type deception legal.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by James Neil
NF 7-2-1 . After the ball is ready for play, each player of A must have been, momentarily, within 15 yards of the ball before the snap. That’s just a formation foul for this play and only carry a 5 yard penalty. What I think it deserves is an unsportsman-like for using a pretend substitution to gain an unfair advantage. Tell the coach something like “Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However.... This isn’t one of them “

REPLY: I agree with you Jim, but remember that the foul is for illegal participation...not USC. USC would be a succeeding spot enforcement, which would mean that any score by the offending team would stand. Can't have that now, can we? But the IP is a live ball foul penalized from the basic spot which in my book would be the previous spot since it would be a foul simultaneous with the snap.

[mcrowder]

Not just that (deception), but the player was never within 15 yards of the ball, AFTER the RFP.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by Bob M.

REPLY: I agree with you Jim, but remember that the foul is for illegal participation...not USC. USC would be a succeeding spot enforcement, which would mean that any score by the offending team would stand. Can't have that now, can we? But the IP is a live ball foul penalized from the basic spot which in my book would be the previous spot since it would be a foul simultaneous with the snap.

Right Bob. I saw I wasn't applying the right foul when I read Doc-WI's post. I was shooting too fast from the hip it seems. It’s just that tricky plays like this get my dander up and I'd like to make the coach pay too LOL. Hey, you think I could toss a dead ball USC at the coach and enforce that one too

[Forksref]

Originally posted by SouthGARef
Yup. Must be within 15 yards of the ball sometime after the RFP. Either way, they're intentionally doing it to gain an advantage--thus it's illegal.

[Edited by SouthGARef on Nov 3rd, 2004 at 01:42 PM]

We had a situation in a playoff game this past Saturday. Late substitution by A(actually, the 11th man came on to the field). As soon as he came on the field, the B coach was screaming "illegal substitution." But, the player ran all the way across the field to get into a receiver position. In doing so he passed easily within 15 yds of the ball. Had he stayed on the side of the field where he entered, it would have been a foul since he never would have gotten within 15 yds of the ball.

[William C]

Good point in stating this was an unsportsmanlike foul.
I'm really not sure we can justify calling it an illegal part. foul. If so -- please tell me how. That will make life -and our job easier.

Assuming it is unsportsmanlike -- the foul would be from suceeding spot -as was pointed out before.
I have copied the case rule 9-9 -3 -- about a similar play -- where deception is involved. In the play -- the are ruling it is PRIOR to the snap -- therefore it's simple to call and it keeps the team from scoring.

9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, Where's the tee? A2 replies, I ll go get it and goes legally in motion toward his team's sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2. RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

On the initial play from this post ....
I am wondering if there's someway we could call this foul as being a foul BEFORE the snap --or AT the snap - so we could come back to the previous spot?

I'm grabbing at straws- but it's really an unfair play -- but could win a ballgame for a team -- and they not be penalized for it --if it were the last play of the game--for example -- and that score put them ahead.

Help ???

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by William C
Good point in stating this was an unsportsmanlike foul.
I'm really not sure we can justify calling it an illegal part. foul. If so -- please tell me how. That will make life -and our job easier.

Assuming it is unsportsmanlike -- the foul would be from suceeding spot -as was pointed out before.
I have copied the case rule 9-9 -3 -- about a similar play -- where deception is involved. In the play -- the are ruling it is PRIOR to the snap -- therefore it's simple to call and it keeps the team from scoring.

9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, Where's the tee? A2 replies, I ll go get it and goes legally in motion toward his team's sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2. RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

On the initial play from this post ....
I am wondering if there's someway we could call this foul as being a foul BEFORE the snap --or AT the snap - so we could come back to the previous spot?

I'm grabbing at straws- but it's really an unfair play -- but could win a ballgame for a team -- and they not be penalized for it --if it were the last play of the game--for example -- and that score put them ahead.

Help ???

REPLY: The originally posted play has an 11th player walking toward the sidelines pretending to be leaving the game. This is specifically covered in NF 9-6-4c as an illegal participation foul. Yes...it's unsporsmanlike in character, but it is NOT a USC foul. The play you posted from the case book (9.9.3B) does not have specific rule coverage so the Federation reacts as it typically does in such situations--with a knee-jerk, but reasonable interpretation. However, their interp violates one of the football fundamentals. Any guesses?? [Note: If this question was on "So You Want To Be A Millionaire," it would probably be worth about $2.00!]

[William C]

Thanks. That works.
I believe you can get by with ill. part. on the original play. It looks like they were trying to 'pretend a substituion' to make the play work. I don't believe anyone could really argue otherwise. if it ever happens w/ me --that's what I'll call and I'll feel good about it.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally posted by Bob M.
The play you posted from the case book (9.9.3B) does not have specific rule coverage so the Federation reacts as it typically does in such situations--with a knee-jerk, but reasonable interpretation. However, their interp violates one of the football fundamentals. Any guesses?? [Note: If this question was on "So You Want To Be A Millionaire," it would probably be worth about $2.00!] [/B]

What are my four choices before I decide to phone a friend?!?