Last week at the end of our game the offense was taking a knee. The defensive nose tackle swatted at the snap and knocked the ball out of the hand of the center. I know it is illegal in NCAA. What about NFHS?

Thanks for any help.

DuckDr

Rules differences manual says it is legal, but I have a hard time with it. I can't envision such a slow snap or such a fast defensive hand that this wouldn't be flaged as encroachment.

The defense can not interfere or impede the snapping of the ball.

NFHS. Section 38, Art 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

Section 1, Art 3. A snap shall, if elected, put the ball in play when a free kick is not specified.

Art 6. The ball remains dead and a down is not begun if a snap or free kick is attempted before the ball is ready for play, or there is an illegal snap, other snap infraction or a dead-ball foul occurs.

The way I interpret this ruling is in a legal snap the center must move the ball backwards AND "release" it! After the release of the ball, the clock starts and you have a live ball. If the center doesn't release the ball, you have a false start. If the defense slaps the ball from the center's hand(s) before the snap, then you have a dead ball foul, delay of game or encroachment (hand entered the neutral zone before the snap--remember the center must release the ball before it is a legal snap).

Extremely interesting interpretation there... does this imply also that you don't let the linemen move until the center releases the ball? I kind of doubt that, or you'd have illegal procedure on every play, but if you truly interpret the snap that way, you can't let the OL move either.

Also interesting is that this difference is published as a difference between FED and NCAA in numerous places.

I think you may want to revisit this interpretation or discuss with a higher-up. No offense meant.

The movement of the ball in a snap signals the start of the play but you do not have a live ball or play until the center releases the ball. Not implying that linemen can't move, they can move as soon as the ball moves backwards but any interference with the legal snap AND release of the ball is a dead ball foul.

What rule are you using to get to this interp? Linemen are penalized 5 yards if they move before the snap, right? The "snap" being the same time that the defense can enter the NZ, right?

Seems you're contradicting yourself here.

You missed the first part of the snap rule. The snap "begins" when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. Interpretation: When the snapper moves the ball, this signals the start of a play--movement allowed.
Art 3. The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player. Interpretation: This completes a legal snap.

Section 1, Art 3. A snap shall, if elected, put the ball in play when a free kick is not specified. Interpretation: If the center does not move the ball backward and release the ball (snap) then the ball never becomes live.

Linemen can move when the offense or center signals the start of a play (beginning of a snap).

I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot but I don't see where anything I have said is contradicting.

As much as you would like to think otherwise Derock, there's nothing illegal about the defense swatting at the ball after the snapper moves it. No such rule, case play, or interp exists. That's even more obvious when it's illegal in NCAA and it's listed as a rule difference between NFHS and NCAA. Twist it however you like, but your interpretation is wrong.

Wow! Am I the only one who interprets the rules I mentioned as it being illegal for the defense to swat the ball from the center's hands after he moves it?

Out of curiousity, what call do you make if this occurs in a game??

Yes Drock, you are the only one who interprets this as illegal. But no surprise here as you've been making up your own rules since you first started posting here. And what are you curious about? THERE IS NO CALL TO BE MADE! This is legal no matter how you twist the rule.

Wow! I can not believe this. How can you say this is a legal play? If this comes down to an opinionated or judgement rule, I think the rules I posted earlier suggest you can not do that. Every situation in the game of football is not going to be clearly spelled out for you as a rule in the rule and case books but you should be able to use everything you know about the game of football and derive to some kind of call when it is not clearly covered. How about the unfair acts rule, section 9, art 3 which states...Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee, tends to make a travesty of the game. If the offense can't even snap the ball because the nose tackle keeps swiping the ball from his hands, I would say this is definitely an unfair act. By rules of Putting the Ball in Play and Snapping definition, the Nose is preventing the offense from putting the ball in play. If you make no call this could go on repeatedly without getting a play off. This has to be a dead ball foul! Now its ok if you disagree but in order to convince me otherwise I need to see some rules that say or even suggest that I am wrong.

Derock the play is legal. You are contridicting yourself. If the linemen can move as soon as the ball is moved for the snap, that means the defense can reach in and knock the ball away. Legal all day in Fed ball and is not in NCAA.
The ball becomes live with the snap. The snap starts the second the ball is moved to make a snap. It only becomes a dead ball illegal snap (false start)if the ball is not released by the center. In this case the offense did not start the play as they are required to. The defense has not such restrictions. They only need to be onside (out of the neutral zone) at the "start of the snap".

So from what everyone here is saying, the defense can actually swat the ball during the snap in NFHS play? So if you have a kid who is quick with his hands at the nose position, he could do this all day to the offense and not get a penalty? I find that hard to fathom but I did look in the rule book also and found no mention of this play by the defense as being illegal. Can someone clarify the NFHS ruling for me please?

Hi Derock,

A question for you.
If the snapper does all the motions of the snap and the ball slips out before he gives it over to the QB what do you have? Live ball backwards pass right?

So what difference does it make to you if the snapper's hand slips on the ball and it stays live (giving the D a chance to recover), or a D slaps his hand and it slips.
Would you have a problem with a blitz that was perfectly timed and the LB crosses the NZ just as the ball starts moving. He has some speed and hits the snapper before the handover to the QB is finished. Bad snap - are you going to rule this a dead ball foul? No, the LB messed up the coordination between snapper and QB.
Or the same situation in shot gun... We are not going to blow it dead if the snap is bad because the snapper got hit while snapping - heck there is a LIVE BALL foul for that in scrimage kick formation.

James

Partner, the entire thread, with the exception of Derock's posts, clarify the ruling.

DeR - the part that you're contradicting yourself on is where you say the defense may move at the start of the snap, but for some reason can't contact the ball until the end of the snap.

The proof that your interp is not accepted is the fact that this is listed EVERYwhere as a difference between FED and NCAA - this is specifically mentioned as legal in FED.

So if the ball is not released by the center, then the ball never becomes live? The defense swatting the ball from the center hands, is this action considered "releasing the ball"? No, the center never released the ball--it was swatted from his hands therefore you have a dead ball situation. Now what do you do???? I really am trying to understand the logic in this being a legal play--help me!

Nowhere does it say the release must be voluntary. If he drops it, the play is live, right? Same as the swat.

The reason you don't see this often is that it requires a lot of precision by the NT. If he moves early, it's offside - if he moves late, he's missed and is not in position to protect himself from a block.

But it IS legal (in FED).

What about this twist?
 

We had a Varsity team inform us of a gadget play where the center maintains possession after snapping to the QBs hands, placing it back on the turf and running with the ball. I told Coach to be sure R is informed when they were going to use this, and they did about 3 times. Was I in error letting this happen? Reading the previous threads, do I understand the ball to be live when the snap is complete (possesed by another A player, or on the ground?)

2nd YrUmp

The key word in what you said is "he drops it"! There is a distinct difference from releasing the ball and having it swatted or swiped from your hand(s). No way is this a legal play. You still didn't answer my question, say the Nose is swift and has a lot of precision and actually swipes the ball from the center hands. Is it a live ball or dead ball and what is the call or non call? Please explain.

Re: What about this twist?
 

That is correct. The ball must be released by the center. In the scenario you mentioned, I have a false start if the center does not release the ball. Merely touching the hands of the QB is not enough--the ball must be released!

I don't see why you are conitnuing this conversation with Derrock, just ask him to post the rules that say this illegal, or atleast give us an article and section from the rulebook. Derrock, you are aruging a point without any proof.

We had a player at a varsity game earlier this season come over and ask us about swatting the ball out of the snapper's hands on a long snap. This long snapper would load-up on his snap and thus really wasn't a legal snap as he would pick the ball up slightly and move it forward a little before his backward motion. We said that nothing stopped him from trying as long as he didn't encroach.

They never tried to slap the ball so we didn't have to rule on if we should have had a dead-ball foul or just a loose ball. So I would say that when a player is able to knock the ball out of the snapper's hands that it is a legal play by the defense but can be an illegal snap if it didn't meet all of those requirements.

So what would you have had if you had to rule on this play? Is it a dead ball or live ball? Simply put I am curious to know what you will do if this happened in a game? Would you rule it a muff, fumble, delay of game, encroachment, what????

I can't even imagine what rule I would cite if I wanted to call this a penalty or a dead-ball of any sort. This is, of course, a live ball, and likely simply a loose ball. If Super-Noseguard actually manages to both A) not encroach, and B) take the ball from the center, it's his ball. Don't see why you would rule differently.

DeR - please consider for a moment that you are the only official on the planet trying to call this a deadball foul on the defense, and your decision to do so flies in the face of numerous citings of FED/NCAA differences that includes statements that swatting the ball from the center is legal in FED.

Again - can you post a rule that the noseguard is violating in this case? Until that point, you really have no leg to stand on.

How can it be a live ball if the center never releases it? Maybe this is where I'm missing it. Are you saying swatting the ball is the same as releasing the ball? If you are, then I don't see how swatting or swiping the ball from the center's hand(s) can be considered the same as releasing it. I am sorry to sound so stubborn about this rule, but it has to make sense to me in order for me to understand it.

You ask me to post a rule. I posted at least 3 rules that would apply to this case but lets examine the Snap rule - Section 38, Art. 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

Interpretation: If the Nose or anybody swipes the ball from the snapper hand(s), we don't even have a legal snap. According to Sec 38, Art 2 the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper "and" touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

Now if this rule is not clear enough, I really don't know what more I can say to convince anyone otherwise.

You make no sense. A ball is live when the snap begins - this is when other players are allowed to enter the neutral zone.

Thanks for the definition of a snap. Now... what rule are you using to say the defense cannot swat at the snap? You seem to be implying that the defense is partially responsible for ensuring that the snap becomes legal. No - this is the offense's responsibility. There's no justification for holding defense responsible for any aspect of the snap.

I think we would have ruled it to be an illegal snap because that is supported by rule. When the snapper moves the ball forward at the beginning of the snap to "wind-up" and then snap it backwards it is an illegal snap. How often have any of you seen this and not called it?

As for the ball being slapped out by NG I still say it is legal. You have actually quoted the exact rules which tell you it is legal.

Here is your situation. A is ready for the snap. QB is under center. Center goes to snap the ball but it slips out of his hand (tall grass, clump of mud, sweaty hand,...), never gets off of the ground, and rolls to the FB. Is this an illegal snap?

A ball is NOT live when the snap begins. Section 38, Art 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment.
Interpretation: If this were true, then all the snapper would have to do is move the ball and it becomes live--not true. The ball does not become a live ball until a legal snap is executed which means the ball must leave the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground.

I am not implying that the defense is responsible for ensuring that the snap becomes legal. I am merely saying the defense can NOT interfere with the legal snapping of the ball. I am not quoting a rule here but out of fairness to the snapper and by the definition of a Snap, how can a legal snap be executed if the defense swipes the ball from his hand(s)? Out of good sportsmanship and fair play, don't you think the offense should at least be allowed to put the ball in play?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warrenkicker
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Derock2004
[B]In this situation, the ball moves backward leaving the snapper hands and its rolling on the ground...the snap is legal! Furthermore, if tall grass and clumps of mud are causing snap problems, then I would try to spot the ball in an area where this will not cause a problem in snapping the ball. I would also suggest to the field monitor to cover the dirt with grass and cut the grass prior to games, if possible. The only thing I could do about the sweaty hands is suggest the snapper use a towel or gloves for his hands. All of these problems with the snap you mention are caused by nature or the snapper himself. This is not the same as the defense swatting at the ball.

Gentlemen, please lets move on. Arguing with the Anti Ref is a waste of time. The Anti-Ref just likes to prattle on with his BS and really doesn't have a clue. I for one don't believe he's ever been an official. For some sick reason he likes to bounce around on the board giving his anti rulings that really don't make any sense at all

Mr Neil, the only time you seem to show up in any of my posts is to try and discredit me as an official. I think I have made a well articulated argument which even included NFHS rules and definitions to support my interpretation of the legality of the Defense swatting at the snapping of the ball.

We had the exact same thing happen to us last week except it was the coach who asked us in the pregame. Our R said he didn't see how it would be illegal. The snapper "loaded up" on the first long snap of the game and the nose slapped at it- the ball rolled back to the punter and he was ambushed.

The K coach wasn't too happy about it but subsequent snaps were much quicker.

Whether he drops it voluntarily or not the ball is released by the center. Thus the snap is over, reguardless if it touches a QB or not. One of the definitions of release is "An unfastening or letting go of something caught or held fast." It says nothing about voluntary or not.
You also quoted from the rule book the ball becomes live as soon as the center moves it other than to adjust the ball. So what difference does it make if the immediate release comes about from handing it to the QB, dropping it or if the defense knocks it out of his hands? Per the definition of release above the ball was released thus a legal snap. If he moves it back and then moves it back forward then it is not a legal snap, thus dead ball because there was no release of the ball in any way shape or form. Thus the dead ball foul.
Let me make it simple. You need ball movement by the center and a release. Center moves the ball, ball is hit by nose guard, ball is RELEASED by center. Live ball, no foul, legal snap.
Besides what are fouls? Something done by a team to gain an "unfair" advantage over the other team. The way you are arguing that this is not a leagal snap, are you really gonna flag the offense 5 yards because of something the defense did? If you do, let me know when so I can go to your game and laugh my *** off at you getting ripped by the coach.
As far as the call, live ball no whistle, throw a bean bag (because unlike a muffed snap by the QB,this is a true fumble)and then when recovered and downed, blow your whistle and signal which way we are going depending on who recovered it.


[Edited by cowbyfan1 on Oct 29th, 2004 at 02:01 AM]

Hi Derock,

1st, I don't see why you are getting so stuck on the phrase 'release' the ball - your rule quote clearly stated 'leaves the hand(s) of the snapper'.
If the snapper's hand was hit and the ball leaves it... It still qualifies according to what you wrote.

Secondly, back to my question earlier that no one seems to have answered.
What if the defender pushed the snapper while snapping, and doesn't contact the ball? My example (a well timed blitz) is quite likely, and a good hit on the snapper might make him mess up the snap. So long as there was no encroachment - I think you would agree there is no problem.
Why whould it be different if the DL makes contact with the ball instead of the snapper himself?


That said, I only officiate NCAA where it is a clear dead ball foul.
2-23-f If the ball is touched by Team B during a legal snap, the ball remains dead and Team B is penalized. If the ball is touched by Team B during an illegal snap, the ball remains dead and Team A is penalized (A.R. 7- 1-5-I-II).

James

Swatting the ball from the snapper hand(s) is a defensive penalty--Encroachment or Delay of Game.

You said you would rule it a fumble. You can't rule it a fumble because player possession was never established. Well if you say its a Muff, then it can't be a Muff because the ball must already be loose in an attempt to secure possession.

SUMMARY:
This will all come down to clarification on if swatting the ball from the snapper hand is the same as releasing it. I am one who believes their is a distinct difference between the two. Furthermore I believe the snapper should be given the opportunity to freely execute a legal snap. In order to be a legal snap, it must conform to all articles of the definition of a snap.

Under NFHS rules, this is legal. Under NCAA rules this is specifically prohibited.

If this occurs during a high school game (NF rules), I've got a live loose ball. Derock, if this concerns you, may I suggest you send your concern to the NFHS for a rule change?

Re: What about this twist?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jaysef
We had a Varsity team inform us of a gadget play where the center maintains possession after snapping to the QBs hands,

Did the center release the ball? If not, this is a snap infraction.


If the center immediately releases the ball by simply put the ball on the ground, then this is a play that team A MUST notify the referee they are going to run before the play in which they run it. (Planned loose ball play in the vicinity of the snapper).

Good call.

If the center snaps the ball to the QB's hands (simply striking the QB's hands) and THEN puts the ball on the ground, this is a snap infraction for two reasons. It wasn't released immediately and the snap had a downward movement. If the QB puts the ball on the ground, the play is legal provided the following:

1. R must be notified before the down in which they run the play.

2. QB must place the ball on the ground. He can't hand it forward to the snapper.

Whats the call in this play:
Punt formation, snapper snaps the ball which floats high into the air in punt-like fashion. B1 runs underneath it and catches it, in stride and races untouched into the end zone. The ball never touches the ground or an A player. What is the call and is there any similarity to B1 touching the ball before the snapper releases it?

A key definition you have missed:

RULE 2-35. Definition of a RULE:
A rule is one of the groups of regulations which govern the game. A rule sometimes states what a player may do, but if there is no such statement for a given act (such as faking a kick), it is assumed that he may do what is not prohibited.

The rulebook wording does not prohibit a defensive player from swiping at the snap.

In like manner, a rule sometimes states or implies that the ball is dead or that a foul is involved. If it does not, it is assumed that the ball is live and that no foul has occurred. If a foul is mentioned, it is assumed that it is not part of a double or multiple foul unless so stated or implied.

In other words, a rule does NOT exist that prevents a defender from swiping at the snap.

Let's look further:

Rule 2-8 ENCROACHMENT:
Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the time interval starting when the ball is ready for play and until the ball is snapped.

This rule does not differentiate between when B may enter the neutral zone and when B may touch the snap.

Rule 2-2: BATTING:
Batting is intentionally slapping or striking the ball with the arm or hand.

What we are talking about here is batting the snap and that is the reason I included this defintion. No where is rule 9-7 does it mention batting the snap as illegal.

Rule 2-1-2:
A live ball is a ball in play. A ball becomes live when the ball has been legally snapped or free kicked and a down is in progress.

When is the ball live. Either the ball is live when the snap is COMPLETED or the ball is live when the snap is started. Which one is it? By common practice, the ball is live the moment the snap is started. The only actions that can cause a snap to illegal are actions by the snapper. Team B can't do anything to invalidate a snap.[/b]


Let's look at the defintion of a snap:

Rule 2-38-2:

The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

If the defense touches the ball during the snap and it comes loose, does the ball immediately leave the hand(s) of the snapper?


Bottom line. NOTHING in the rules prevents B from batting at the snap.

I am assuming you never played or saw a game of football. The situation you describe above is called a TOUCHDOWN for B. The second scenario is a fumble. Both are legal in NFHS.

Devil's advocate
 

Not trying to muddy the discussion, but, you could also use the "quick and continuous, backward motion" requirement stated in the rule to support the fact that something with a noseguard batting a snap is wrong...if B slaps the ball is it moving backward continuously? Therefore is it a legal snap?

My point being, we are getting into some interpretation minutia that could go on forever. I don't have the answer, I just see both sides...my call would still be "no call" for my 2 cents.

Seef

Yes, it's moving back continuously until the defense hits it. Still a legal snap, and still a legal play by the defense.

DeR's only hangup seems to be the word RELEASE. Please, DeR, note specifically that none of the rules require this release to be voluntary. Involuntary release (whether simply by dropping the ball or having it swatted out of his hands) is still a release.

And I'll repeat what I've said 3 times, because it doesn't seem to be sinking in. In the books and other publications listing the differences between FED and NCAA, the swatting of the ball by the defense is specifically mentioned as a legal play in FED.

But how can it be a touchdown if the ball never touches the ground or an A player? Isn't that the definition of a legal snap? And is it not a rule that a "legal snap" will cause the ball to become live???

Man I am confused!

You are looking into it way too deeply. Take a step back and breath a little. The game is football. The object is to get the little brown oblique spheriod into the endzone. A snap a is continuous movement of the ball and a release. IT DOESN'T MATTER IN NFHS IF THE 'RELEASE' OCCURS VOLUNTARILY OR INVOLUNTARILY. Read some of the other posts dude. Its not that tough to interpret. Its legal and there is no interpretation that is going to justify it as illegal.

Maybe this will help...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derock2004

Quote:

[i]But how can it be a touchdown if the ball never touches the ground or an A player? Isn't that the definition of a legal snap? And is it not a rule that a "legal snap" will cause the ball to become live??? Man I am confused!

DeRock-
In the play above the snap <b>WAS LEGAL</b>.
It appears you are thinking that because the ball has not <b>touched the ground or a backfield player</b> it was not a legal snap.
Please note: The requirment of the ball touching the ground or a backfield player is only necessary <b> WHEN AN "A" LINEMAN IS INVOLVED</B>.
Restated, since a <b>"TEAM A LINEMAN"</b> was not involved in the play, <b>the snap was legal!</b>
I hope this helps

[B] I couldn't agree more!!!

Ok, I understand NFHS says its legal but it still seems to be illogical to me. I will "try" to leave this topic alone and submit to the masses that this is a legal play. However, for the record I personally and respectfully disagree that this should be ruled as a legal play! End of discussion.

Re: Maybe this will help...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KWH

Quote:

Originally posted by Derock2004 Quote: [i]But how can it be a touchdown if the ball never touches the ground or an A player? Isn't that the definition of a legal snap? And is it not a rule that a "legal snap" will cause the ball to become live??? Man I am confused! DeRock- In the play above the snap <b>WAS LEGAL</b>. It appears you are thinking that because the ball has not <b>touched the ground or a backfield player</b> it was not a legal snap. Please note: The requirment of the ball touching the ground or a backfield player is only necessary <b> WHEN AN "A" LINEMAN IS INVOLVED</B>. Restated, since a <b>"TEAM A LINEMAN"</b> was not involved in the play, <b>the snap was legal!</b> I hope this helps

This helps because it forced me to critically read the definition of a Snap. Now, I can honestly say I see why this play is legal (I still don't agree with it but at least NOW I see why it is legal).

Section 38, Art 3...The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or <b>ANY</b> player.

Interpretation: When the Nose Guard swats (touches) the ball the snap legally ended. If someone explained that to me earlier and I missed it, I apologize. This one word "any" seems out of place since the entire definition focuses the readers attention to the offensive side of the ball. NFHS could have better clarified this definition by adding "any <b>A or B</b> player.

In my opinion, this is an unfair rule. The snapper should be allowed the opportunity to put the ball in play without someone swatting at the ball but again, it is legal!

That's what the snapper gets for playing football in a state that doesn't use real football rules like Texas and Massachusetts do.

;)

I can respect that you think it's an unfair rule, but how many of us have seen this happen? The NCAA has made it illegal probably due to the speed and quickness of the defensive linemen nowadays and also their encroachment rules. Obviously it can happen at the HS ranks, but quite rare.

Hey mcrowder, you are the minority here!! :)

\

Opinions are like butt-holes, everybody has one!
FYI - If Massachusetts switches to NFHS rules, (and there is still discussion toward that effort) it will be 50-1 (including the District of Columbia) nationwide as to states using NFHS rules.
That being said, we all know the better officials can work and understand two sets of rules.
That being said, Texas will most likely continue to only use one set of rules.