Curious as to what you Umps (toughest man in the crew bye the way) use to signal your wings and WH when counting Offense. I punch out with fist at the LOS while over the ball. What do you guys do when 10 break the huddle? What about 12?

Jayseef

10 or less and I have my fist down at my side. 11 I am punching towards the R who should be punching back. This way when the 11th man comes on the field, I just lift up my forearm and am punching towards the R, very subtle movement which is what I think signals should be. 12 or more in the huddle is the R's call as he is able to tell if one player is trying to get another to leave and it is only confusion and not deception that leaves more than 11 in the huddle. Once they break the huddle, I signal 12 or more by dropping a flag so we always have illegal substitution and not illegal participation. The crews I work with feel illegal participation due to failure to count properly is a demerit to the officials. For the wings, HL in particular, I use a hand to the face for unbalanced line to help the HL count 7 on the line.

don't know why, but down here in SW FL
the U and BJ count defense---
I don't like it as there are times when I
cannot get a count quickly enough--
with 11, punch my fist with the BJ, usually even verbalize "got 11"
with 10, hold both hands (fingers open) on my chest
with 12 or more, put both hands on the bill of my hat
---- as U I will remind the defensive captain to "count 'em up"

With your mechanics how does the BJ see that you have both hands on your chest for 10 players?

Canadian Mechanic
 

The mechanic used in Ontario is to tap the brim of your hat if you've got 12 (the expected number), tap your flag for more than 12, or point down to the ground if they're short.

Our ump and white hat just use a simple fist for 11, thumb up for 12 or thumb down for 10.

Signals
 

Fist out with 11, palms to chest with 10 and hand to brim with 12 until the 12 are confirmed and then a flag.

Duckdr

Same for us. Simple, effective, and unnoticable.

follow-up question
 

Let's say you got 10, and the LJ or HL have less than 7 on LOS...live or dead ball foul? My HL was working with another crew and he had 6 on LOS, blew it dead...crew chastised him profusely and told him to flag it, but let play go live. Is this correct?

2ndYrUmp

Re: follow-up question
 

This is a live ball foul. The offense could have shifted and corrected the alignment. He should have thrown the flag at the snap and not blown the whistle.

Re: follow-up question
 

Can the team move one guy up and make 7 on the line before the snap? Or is it a foul as soon as they have 6 on the line?

Hand signs.
 

Its a foul at the snap for illegal procedure, six men on the line at the snap. They have until the snap to correct the situation.

Here in our association: R & U count offense, LJ and BJ count defense. HL does not have counting responsibilities but is told to count the offense and the number of players on the offensive line at the snap.

We punch when we have 11, hold our hands to our chest or straight down if we have 10 or less, and put our hand on top of our caps if we have 12 or more.

We count in the huddle if possible (I verbalize with my R just after the ready for play) or as soon as possible when the team breaks the huddle.

If 12 or more, we make eye contact, then reach for our flags, then nod at each other, then throw and blow. It looks sharp that way if you can do it.

I think we have the easiest mechinac of everyone, we only count on kickoffs. The only time we count on O and D is when we hear the coach yelling "HEY THEY GOT 12 IN THE HUDDLE!!!!"... then we worry about it. :)

Maybe I'll ask our WH about this on Friday.

Good thinking!! That mechanic would sure give a guy alot more time to check out the crowd between plays and completely does away with the requirement that a guy be able to count that high.

Our association:

U, BJ and LJ count B. If we're good (<12), BJ and LJ fist out to side, U fist behind back. If we're not, BJ and U will verbalize "nope" and we'll get no fist from LJ. BJ will blow and throw as snap appears imminent and we see no player leaving the field.

R and HL count A (since R coordinates with HL to be sure chains are set we decided to take advantage of that communication). Same mechanic for 'good', Fists out to side. If > 11, R will check HL for 'no fist' and will blow and throw as snap is imminent.

HL and LJ count players on LOS on their side of Center. IF 3, punch downfield. If > 3 punch downfield and indicate # with fingers of other hand over head. If < 3 punch upfield and indicate # with fingers of other hand over head.

If we have < 7 on line and < 11 on A, we blow and throw as snap appears imminent. We prefer to penalize Illegal Sub vs. Illegal Part.

one more question...
 

If 10 break the huddle, and A tries to run a man on the field as they approach the LOS, is that Ill. Sub.? Does the rules not state that all 11 must be within 15yds of the ball when huddle breaks?

Seef

Re: one more question...
 

The rulebook just states that player must be momentarily within 15 yards of the ball after the ready and before the snap. It's illegal proecdure, 5 yards.

7-2-1: After the ball is ready for play, each "player" of A must have been momentarily, within 15 yards of the ball before the snap.

I believe the intent of this rule was to prevent a Hideout WR from entering the field just prior to the snap and being uncovered. If A11 enters the field and comes within 15 yards of the ball and then takes position in the formation, you got nothing.

If A11 enters the field and never comes within the 15 yards, you have Illegal Procedure. If this same player had left the field during the same dead-ball period and then re-entered, you'd have Illegal Sub.

Washington: Closed fist for 11. Twirl index finger up for more, down for less.