"purposely" fumbling forward.

[ump76]

I had a situation that happened to a crew in our association and am confused on the enforcement and would like some help ffrom the gallery.

Team A is trailing by 5 points with :02 to go in the fourth quarter. They have the ball on B's 20 yard line and throw a pass to A1 as time expires. He cathches the ball on the 6 yard line and as he is being tackled, around the 5 yard line, he "fumbles" the ball into the end zone. His teammate A2 falls on the ball in the end zone.

Please explain to me B's options and what you would call in this situation. I appreciate your help.

[MJT]

Originally posted by ump76
I had a situation that happened to a crew in our association and am confused on the enforcement and would like some help ffrom the gallery.

Team A is trailing by 5 points with :02 to go in the fourth quarter. They have the ball on B's 20 yard line and throw a pass to A1 as time expires. He cathches the ball on the 6 yard line and as he is being tackled, around the 5 yard line, he "fumbles" the ball into the end zone. His teammate A2 falls on the ball in the end zone.

Please explain to me B's options and what you would call in this situation. I appreciate your help.

I assume you can have a flag for Ill forward pass, otherwise TD for A.
Pretty basic enforcement if you ruled ill forward pass. You have 5 yard penalty from the spot of the pass and LOD. They will take penalty, otherwise TD for A.

If 4th down, then B ball at 10 yardline for an untimed down.
If not 4th down, untimed down for A at the 10 yardline.

Similar play in 2003 casebook 7.5.2d (my 04 casebook in crewmates car)

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ump76
I had a situation that happened to a crew in our association and am confused on the enforcement and would like some help ffrom the gallery.

Team A is trailing by 5 points with :02 to go in the fourth quarter. They have the ball on B's 20 yard line and throw a pass to A1 as time expires. He cathches the ball on the 6 yard line and as he is being tackled, around the 5 yard line, he "fumbles" the ball into the end zone. His teammate A2 falls on the ball in the end zone.

Please explain to me B's options and what you would call in this situation. I appreciate your help.

In Canada, anyone can recover a fumble. Is this scenario, the official must judge if the act is a fumble or not.

If a fumble, A wins.

If recovered by an offside player, rule as an offside pass and game over, B wins.

If recovered by an onside player, A wins.

[Cruser]

"He cathches the ball on the 6 yard line and as he is being tackled, around the 5 yard line, he "fumbles" the ball into the end zone. His teammate A2 falls on the ball in the end zone."

Wouldn't this be an incomplete illegal forward pass?
B should decline the penalty since the illegal forward pass was incomplete.....Game Over.

Going further, should you blow this play dead if it is clearly an "on-purpose" forward fumble that hits the ground, therefore making it an incomplete illegal forward pass? I'd like to see some opinions on this.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by MJT
I assume you can have a flag for Ill forward pass, otherwise TD for A.
Pretty basic enforcement if you ruled ill forward pass. You have 5 yard penalty from the spot of the pass and LOD. They will take penalty, otherwise TD for A.

MJT,

Had something similar not to long ago, had the same brain fart until one of the coaches asked me, "If you ruled it an illegal forward pass how was it recovered on the ground?"

In this case, illegal forward pass if deemed intentional and not fumble, incomplete, not a TD, so B's best option would be to decline the penalty and end the game with B still ahead by 5 points. If it is not ruled an illegal forward pass, then it is a fumble and A wins.

Alternative plays that don't work but do allow a replay would be to have the player place the ball on the ground and either bat or kick it into the endzone for his teammate to recover for the TD. Both batting and kicking would be illegal acts from the spot of the illegal bat or kick but would allow for A to extend the period for a play if B accepted the penalty. Which they would need to do to get the points off the board in this case.

[MJT]

Originally posted by BulldogMcC

MJT,

Had something similar not to long ago, had the same brain fart until one of the coaches asked me, "If you ruled it an illegal forward pass how was it recovered on the ground?"

In this case, illegal forward pass if deemed intentional and not fumble, incomplete, not a TD, so B's best option would be to decline the penalty and end the game with B still ahead by 5 points. If it is not ruled an illegal forward pass, then it is a fumble and A wins.

Alternative plays that don't work but do allow a replay would be to have the player place the ball on the ground and either bat or kick it into the endzone for his teammate to recover for the TD. Both batting and kicking would be illegal acts from the spot of the illegal bat or kick but would allow for A to extend the period for a play if B accepted the penalty. Which they would need to do to get the points off the board in this case.

I never really thought about the fact that the ball hit the ground. I would have ruled incomplete if "seen" the play and it hit the ground. B obviously would then decline to win game. Totally agree with you. Good discussion.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by ump76
Team A is trailing by 5 points with :02 to go in the fourth quarter. They have the ball on B's 20 yard line and throw a pass to A1 as time expires. He cathches the ball on the 6 yard line and as he is being tackled, around the 5 yard line, he "fumbles" the ball into the end zone. His teammate A2 falls on the ball in the end zone.

One thing I'd be careful, is to use judgement on this play, we don't know what "fumbles" mean, I think most people are taking it that the player threw the ball foward. But if he legitimately fumbled it then the play is perfectly legal. We do not go back to the spot of the fumble like NFL or NCAA.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
[..... We do not go back to the spot of the fumble like NFL or NCAA.

### Depends on whether this is 4th down or a try down.

In this NF play, is does not matter. The only consideration is, is this really a fumble caused by the hit or the runner doing some like an illegal forward pass.

[Texoma_LJ]

Assuming that the penalty is an illegal forward pass, the options should be as such:
If Team B declines, then it is a touchdown for Team A
If Team B accepts the penalty, then it would be 5 yards marked off at the spot of the foul. Since the period cannot end on a any ppenalty that is accepted, Team A is then given one untimed down.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Texoma_LJ
Assuming that the penalty is an illegal forward pass, the options should be as such:
If Team B declines, then it is a touchdown for Team A
If Team B accepts the penalty, then it would be 5 yards marked off at the spot of the foul. Since the period cannot end on a any ppenalty that is accepted, Team A is then given one untimed down.

Well I disagree, the ball becomes dead when the illegal forward pass hits the ground, see how it says A2 falls on the ball. If this is the last play, team B can simply decline.

[Texoma_LJ]

I concur... the difference between "catch" and "falls" in this case, is six points !!

[ump76]

All of the points that have been brought up were also brought up within our association. This play is one of those "you have to be there" penaltys that would be hard to make a judgement on.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by ump76
I had a situation that happened to a crew in our association and am confused on the enforcement and would like some help ffrom the gallery.

Team A is trailing by 5 points with :02 to go in the fourth quarter. They have the ball on B's 20 yard line and throw a pass to A1 as time expires. He cathches the ball on the 6 yard line and as he is being tackled, around the 5 yard line, he "fumbles" the ball into the end zone.


Intentionally fumbling the ball forward is an illegal forward pass. Sounds like you are describing an intentional act.


His teammate A2 falls on the ball in the end zone.


If the "fumble" was grounded, you simply have an incomplete pass. If not, A2 has caught the pass and the results of the play is a touchdown.


Please explain to me B's options and what you would call in this situation. I appreciate your help.

Depends on if the "forward fumble" was caught or not. If caught, B will no doubt accept the penatly and play an untimed down. If incomplete, B will decline the penalty and the game is over.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by ump76
All of the points that have been brought up were also brought up within our association. This play is one of those "you have to be there" penaltys that would be hard to make a judgement on.

REPLY: Right! Ask Jerry Markbreit about his call (non-call) with Oakland's Kenny Stabler's intentional 'fumble' against San Diego some years back. According to Markbreit who thought it was truly fumbled because he was behind Stabler, it ended up about 30yards downfield in SD's end zone where Dave Casper jumped on it. It was the play that added the "Markbreit Rule" to the NFL rule book, which is the genesis of the NCAA and NFL 4th down fumble and fumble OOB rules. I admit, I don't fully know the NFL rule. Hope I never have a rule named after me!