Numbering- Elgible or Inelgible

[BoBo]

I have seen some familar names from here on the fed board and there has been some interesting discussion in regards to the following play.

Team A has 4th and 6.

Line up in scrimmage kick formation.

The eight lineman are numbered from left to right in the following order:

88-79-68-51-66-73-89-80

80 shifts two steps backwards and becomes a back.

A fakes the punt and passes to 89 for a 15 yard gain.

Is this a legal catch/play?


The arguement is that the numbering exception is in effect when they initially line up.

Which by rule 7-2-5-b-exception states
At the snap, at least five A players on the line of scrimmage must be numbered 50-79. B players may be anywhere on or behind the line. EXCEPTION: When A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation any A player numbered 1-49 or 80-99 may take the position of any A player numbered 50-79. A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an inelgible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b)

Another play example is if A lines up for a PAT and the snapper is #82 and is on the end of the line for the fake. Well #84 when is the first player to the left of the center before they shift with the rest of the line lined up to the left of #84. By rule when #84 shifts to a regular PAT formation he is inelgible because of his original position of the scrimmage-kick formation.

This is long and confusing but will get some interesting feed back I am guessing.

[STEVED21]

Bobo,

In your example, the team is not using the numbering exception so # 89 would be an eligible receiver.#89 is not taking the place of a player #50-79.

Now, change your play a bit. Make # 51 (the center) #21. 88-79-68-21-66-73-89-80. Only 4 # 50-79 on the line.Now the exception is in effect. Both # 89 & 21 would be ineligible throughout the down.

[BoBo]

Steve I agree with you on the first play.

PAT/FG play

84-77-54-66-72-82 and then clear over at center is 89.

We have all seen 89 snap the ball back to the holder and the 89 goes out to catch the pass for 2 points.

Here in this original formation we have the infamous "NUMBERING EXCEPTION". Thus #82 has lined up as an inelgible receiver.

Now the holder tells everybody to shift.

Now our line looks like this

84-77-54-89-66-72-82

By Rule 82 started as an inelgible receiver thus he remains inelgible throughout the down.

Now what are you going to call?

[STEVED21]

82 started as an ineligible so remains so during the down. If he goes downfield during a pass, it's ineligible downfiels. If he touches the pass it's OPI.

[BoBo]

Until I came across this discussion last night that thought never even crossed my mind.

That is why these forums are great.

Never a dumb question?

Always a chance to learn something everyday!!

Thanks for you comments Steve

[STEVED21]

Neither did we until we were watching a tape of one our games. It led to a discussion at a meeting and realized that no one had ever looked for this before. I'm sure the first time it happens in a game all h*** will break loose.

[North Pole Alaska Ref]

I disagree, since a shift occurred, #82 is now eligible. A down does not start until a snap (legal of course). Think of a tight end moving from one side of the line to the other and the receiver(s) moving up to and off the line, this is also a shift and makes those that are on the end of the line legal.

[BoBo]

Originally posted by BoBo
The arguement is that the numbering exception is in effect when they initially line up.

Which by rule 7-2-5-b-exception states
At the snap, at least five A players on the line of scrimmage must be numbered 50-79. B players may be anywhere on or behind the line. EXCEPTION: When A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation any A player numbered 1-49 or 80-99 may take the position of any A player numbered 50-79. A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an inelgible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b)

This verbatim out of the rule book.

The key statement is

A player in the under this exception must assume an initial postion on his line of scrimmage between the ends .....etc.

When does "initial position" begin?

At the snap or when they first come to the line?

One way to get around this would be if they shift their hands are not on the ground and this allows them to shift to another position.

Like any other play; say the guard is lined up wrong. He comes to the line and gets in his position in the line (without his hand on the ground) he is allowed to move to another spot on the line.

Or the center has not put his hands on the ball yet.

[STEVED21]

The initial position is where they are when they first take their position at the LOS. This only applies when the numbering exception is being used.