coin toss

[SouthGARef]

This can all be avoided. When the wings go to get the captains for the meeting, ask them to stand with you with the coach. Ask them: a) What are you going to do if you win the tosS? b) What are you going to do if they win the toss and they choose to receive... which goal would you like to defend? c) What are you going to do if they win the toss and choose to defer, you're going to receive right?

Then you've got the kids trained...

[cmathews]

I am all for this at the younger levels...however at a varsity game I am not going to have a captain choose to kick then have me step in and say uhhh no you wanted to defer remember.....I don't have a problem telling a coach that the guy he chose to be a captain, made this choice...it isn't our fault at all, it is poor coaching. As I said before I am fine with repeating, and adding you are sure you want to kick....which in the 2 situations I have seen this year was done, both times the wh (one of which was me) said are you SURE you want to kick...both times it was "yes we want to kick"...so there we go..

[Rich]

Originally posted by BushRef
I did a game this year where there was a school in the 2nd year of their program. The more experienced team won the toss and elected to defer. The captain of the new program elected to KICK, even after the WH asked him if he was sure that was what he wanted to do.

When we got ready to start the 2nd half, the coach of the new team wanted to know why his team kicked both halves. When we told him his captain elected to kick in the first half and the other team chose to receive in the 2nd half, he said he thought that the team that kicked in the first half automatically received in the 2nd half.

What a learning experience that was. Not to mention the final score of 56-0.

Some preventive officiating would've been in order here.

[Rich]

Originally posted by cmathews
I am all for this at the younger levels...however at a varsity game I am not going to have a captain choose to kick then have me step in and say uhhh no you wanted to defer remember.....I don't have a problem telling a coach that the guy he chose to be a captain, made this choice...it isn't our fault at all, it is poor coaching. As I said before I am fine with repeating, and adding you are sure you want to kick....which in the 2 situations I have seen this year was done, both times the wh (one of which was me) said are you SURE you want to kick...both times it was "yes we want to kick"...so there we go..

Again, what's the point of this? Make sure the teams know the consequences and make sure they choose what they really mean.

[SJoldguy]

I work about 70 games a year. This happens about twice a year in youth games. I usually prevent it at that level, but last year a freshman team insisted that their coach said to choose to kick. They kickoff in both halves and the coach took full responsibility for it. He thought that if you kicked off in the first half you automatically received in the second.

For clarification:

Excluding the right to defer their choices to the second half, there are 2 choices at the start of the game. The winner gets to choose which of those options to pick from and the loser of the coin toss gets the other option. The two options are:

1. Receive or kick
and
2. pick either goal to defend in the first quarter.

The kick choice should always be included. Example : a very wet day where there should be a lot of turnovers. Both teams want to play defense in the other teams territory to start the game. The only way to guarantee to be on defense is to elect to kick. If you choose a goal, then the other team can elect to kick. The 99.99999999% statistical number quoted earlier isn't enought to omit the kick choice. Do what the rules say to do. Preventive officiating is used to prevent a team from making a mistake. Changing the rules, by not giving the options properly, hurts the teams that knows what they want, when they actually want to kickoff no matter what!

[Edited by SJoldguy on Oct 8th, 2004 at 12:57 AM]

[JamesBond]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Some preventive officiating would've been in order here.

All due respect, preventative officiating should be reserved for stopping minor rules infractions from becoming major rules infractions. Limiting the coin toss choices doesn't do that at all. Don't pretend to be a coach or presume to know better then the team leader. On the varsity level, if a captain says he wants to kick then he wants to kick and it is not for us as officials to arm chair coach that response. In the half a dozen times it has happened at the Varsity level, I have never had any backlash from the coach. We explain the choices and they chose. Its simple really. Just my $0.02.
007

[Rich]

Originally posted by JamesBond

All due respect, preventative officiating should be reserved for stopping minor rules infractions from becoming major rules infractions. Limiting the coin toss choices doesn't do that at all. Don't pretend to be a coach or presume to know better then the team leader. On the varsity level, if a captain says he wants to kick then he wants to kick and it is not for us as officials to arm chair coach that response. In the half a dozen times it has happened at the Varsity level, I have never had any backlash from the coach. We explain the choices and they chose. Its simple really. Just my $0.02.
007

I'm not coaching when I explain the down and location of the ball when I give the choice to the captains on penalty enforcement, so why am I coaching when I tell the captain that if he chooses "kick" that his team will likely have to kick in both halves.

In my opinion it is simply poor officiating to hear "kick" in ANY HS game and not make sure they didn't mean "defer." If they really insist on choosing "kick" I'll let them, but there's no reason to show both teams how smart you are by being so literal.

Like I said, this is just my opinion -- but I don't think preventing bad situations should stop just because it's a varsity game.

I did say that I will present all the options in a previous email, too, just in the order of the ones that people are most likely to exercise.

--Rich

[mcrowder]

You are not coaching when you tell him what choosing kick will mean.

You are, however, overstepping your bounds, I believe, when you don't even include KICK as an option.

[Rich]

Originally posted by mcrowder
You are not coaching when you tell him what choosing kick will mean.

You are, however, overstepping your bounds, I believe, when you don't even include KICK as an option.

I *do* include kick as an option, just after receive and defer to the second half -- I may include a slight pause in there to see if they already have one of those two choices in mind (which 95% of captains will), but I'll say kick or defend a goal eventually.

The point I want to see discussed is the point I made earlier -- when the kid says "we want to kick" how many people would just give him that option without explaining the consequences? To be honest, I like my wingmen too much to subject them to the continued abuse they'll get if the same team has to kick off twice because of some simple misunderstanding.

[Forksref]

Wind is a factor. Some want it in the 4th quarter, etc.

Some teams choose defense because they like to do that first because they believe in their defense. This is not the same situation as defending a goal because of weather conditions.

[mcrowder]

My apologies, Rich. That "You" wasn't directed at YOU - it was directed at the collective You, and a couple of the guys on here have advocated not including Kick as an option.

[Rich]

So tonight we have the toss and before I can even get word one out of my mouth, the visiting captain that won the toss says "We defer."

So much for reporting how this all went tonight

Visiting team won 33-8.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Might it help to ask the winner of the toss, "Do you want to make your choice this half or 'defer' till the second half?" and get that answer before offering the receive/kick/goal question to the appropriate captain?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Might it help to ask the winner of the toss, "Do you want to make your choice this half or 'defer' till the second half?" and get that answer before offering the receive/kick/goal question to the appropriate captain?

It would help if your goal is to get a blank stare

--Rich

[Matt-MI]

Just had this happen Friday Night with the #1 team in the state. At the end of halftime I asked the coach if he wanted to receive. He said he would choose to defend a goal. Has a great defense and even took the wind in the 3rd Qtr. Visiting coach was happy to receive both halves.

Halftime score was 7-0. They won 23-0.