coin toss

[mcrowder]

I agree. There is a HUGE difference between MECHANICS and RULES. We don't have the authority to change the rules.

[Bob Proctor]

I always give the captains all of their choices, however, I always ask the head coach what he plans to do at the toss. I specifically ask him if he wants to defer his choice. This way I am able to form my question to the captain in a way to limit his chance of messing up. In other words, if the coach indicates that he wishes to defer, I will ask the captain directly, "Do you wish to defer?" It also allows me to help the coach if he tells me he wants to go on defense first. I can explain to him the consequences of phrasing his instructions to his captain. We can do many things in our officiating to help avoid negative situations. I think this is part of the "preventive officiating" philosophy.

[Rich]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KWH

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

All writings in the NFHS Officials Manual are recommended procedures! (Officials Manual - inside flap)
The officials manual uses words such as encouraged and recommended.
Examples would include: the recommendation (Page 74, III-E 1&2) that (in a first and goal situation) the Head Linesman place a clip on the chains at the intersection of the goal line prior to removing the chains from the sideline. (This recommendation, like all other recommendations contained within the Officials Manual, comes from experianced, knowledgeable, and seasoned veteran officials.)

All writings in the NFHS Rule Book are Rules.
When shall is used anywhere within the binders rule book, I interpet shall to be equivalant to required.
Likewise, when required is used in the rule book I interpet required to be equivalant to shall.
Examples would include NFHS Rule 3-2-3 ...The options for each half SHALL be:
a) To choose whether to kick or recieve...

One closing thought -
While the NFHS may not sign your paycheck,
the NFHS does require you to buy their rule book, every year!!!

Nuff said!

Yeah, sure. Whatever. And the best officials are the ones that know how to manage a game properly, not necessarily the ones that score the highest on the exam.

If you go back through this thread, I never once said I don't offer up all the choices. I only said I offer them in the order *I* choose. And if someone says "kick" then I'm going to make *certain* that this is what they want.

If you want to be preachy about the rule book, go right ahead. I know the rules and study the rules often. But I don't think that the words are words on a sacred scroll or anything like that.

--Rich

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


If you want to be preachy about the rule book, go right ahead. I know the rules and study the rules often. But I don't think that the words are words on a sacred scroll or anything like that.

--Rich

In Texas, high school football is Friday night religion. Likewise, everything associated with football is sacred. Repeat 20 Hail Marys, you sinner.

[Texoma_LJ]

What happens if in the course of hearing something you think is wrong, you rephrase things that confuse a young man and he chooses something that the coach didnt want in the first place ???
Is this not worse than having him make a mistake on his own?
In giving choices on penalty enforcement, if we hear something we "think" is wrong do we keep rephrasing to try and get the "right" answer?
I guess I just think that especially at the varsity level these are young men. They need to be treated as such which means they need to learn that with a position of leadership (being a captain) their is some sense of being responsible for their actions and descisions they make.

This is a life lesson... not a football lesson.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Texoma_LJ
What happens if in the course of hearing something you think is wrong, you rephrase things that confuse a young man and he chooses something that the coach didnt want in the first place ???
Is this not worse than having him make a mistake on his own?
In giving choices on penalty enforcement, if we hear something we "think" is wrong do we keep rephrasing to try and get the "right" answer?
I guess I just think that especially at the varsity level these are young men. They need to be treated as such which means they need to learn that with a position of leadership (being a captain) their is some sense of being responsible for their actions and descisions they make.

This is a life lesson... not a football lesson.

It's only a game. There's a lesson in our listening and comprehending, too, and being preventive.

[Deep]

Well, who'd have a thunk we could have a 4 page discussion on coin toss options? I've been reading it and staying out of it so far, but now I'm going to offer you a little philosophy.

As background, I'm usually considered a "rules guy" by others in my area. And it's taken me a number of years to realize that there's more to the game than that. It might be considered sacrilegous by some to make this statement, but The Rulebook is Simply a Guideline for how the game should be played. Now, I'm not saying we can make up rules, nor can we ignore rules we don't personally like, because that's just chaos, not a game. But we need to temper the rules with common sense.

How many guys are going to flag every little mistake in a little kids game? According to the rule book you should. But we temper that with common sense and allow the kids to learn and have fun.

How many guys are going to flag contact on a receiver that would be DPI if the ball was thrown to him, but instead is in the air headed toward the other sideline? Remember, by FED rule, if the ball is in the air, this is DPI by the rulebook. Again, not too many are going to do this for very long. Again, common sense is tempering the rule book.

In a game where a team is getting blown out by 40, say you stop the clock for an injured player with 6 minutes left in the game and the clock operator doesn't get it stopped until 4 seconds after you signaled? Are you going to put the time back on? Again, by rule, you should, but are you going to?

We are out there to help the kids. We are out there to make them as safe as possible, give them a fair chance at winning the game, and give them a chance to have fun. If I can help prevent an obvious mistake by a 15-17 year old kid, then why wouldn't I? That kid has enough on his mind.

And remember, it's not just kids that make mistakes at coin tosses. At my very first college game as a white hat, I screwed up the signals on the toss. Stepped out, signaled the defer. Came back in, got the rest of the choices, then proceeded to signal that the team that had just defered was also going to receive. Naturally, that wasn't right. That gave the coach some pause until I trotted over and told him he was getting the ball, that I had just screwed up the signal. He just slapped me on the shoulder and said "Ok!"

[wildcardcis]

FWIW ... I saw a coach once who really did want to "kick" at the start of both halves. Apparently this was his regular practice, week after week. I guess he he had more faith in his defense's ability to force a turnover or hold the offense to three and out, than in his offense's ability to march the ball down the field.

[JugglingReferee]

I've recently looked into the coin toss and tried to come up with what I think is a good sequence. Here's how I do the toss:

We line up at the 55. (Yes, we have a 55-yard line, FTTDK.) The WH faces benches so that he may see the coaches over players' shoulders. The rest of the crew stands about 5 yards away, facing the stands. The captains line up on their respectives sides to make a 'box' with the officials.

I ask each team who will speak for the coin toss. I show both teams the heads and tails, and am sure that my crew know which is which before hand. I then ask the visiting team what their choice is. I repeat "Visitors choose heads", or "Hamilton chooses tails", or whatever. I then flip the coin and catch it. Sometimes guys have the coin land in the grass and it lands between blades of grass, standing upright, to which I have to flip again. I then flip the coin to my other wrist and show the home team and myself first. Then I show the visiting team.

I ask V is they wanna defer or choose now. I then go through all the options as necessary, have the teams flip sides if required, signal an "incomplete signal" to mean defering. Then I signal receive with the other team if they chose to receive, kick if they chose kick. I'm actually still trying to figure out a signal to defend an end.

[KWH]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
...I'm actually still trying to figure out a signal to defend an end.

When faced with that situation, the proper method requires TWO signals!

As per the NFHS Officials manual under "The Coin Toss" (Step 7c)...If the first choosing captain elected to defend a goal, point with both arms extended toward that goal line, then move to other captains and give appropriate signal for choice of other captain.

Since we are on the subject, I am trying to determine a signal for when faced with an overtime coin toss the winning captain chooses defense!!!
Restated, when faced with an overtime situation it is clear that the winner of the toss may choose offense, defense, or choose which goal the series will be played at.
1) My best guess the signal for choosing a goal is the same method as described above.
2) I was told or read somewhere the signal for choosing offense is to place a ball to the players chest and then signal first down.
3) However, the most common option of the winning captain in overtime is to choose defense. Whats the signal???
Can anybody direct me to where the proper overtime signals are listed???

[Rich]

Originally posted by KWH

When faced with that situation, the proper method requires TWO signals!

As per the NFHS Officials manual under "The Coin Toss" (Step 7c)...If the first choosing captain elected to defend a goal, point with both arms extended toward that goal line, then move to other captains and give appropriate signal for choice of other captain.

Since we are on the subject, I am trying to determine a signal for when faced with an overtime coin toss the winning captain chooses defense!!!
Restated, when faced with an overtime situation it is clear that the winner of the toss may choose offense, defense, or choose which goal the series will be played at.
1) My best guess the signal for choosing a goal is the same method as described above.
2) I was told or read somewhere the signal for choosing offense is to place a ball to the players chest and then signal first down.
3) However, the most common option of the winning captain in overtime is to choose defense. Whats the signal???
Can anybody direct me to where the proper overtime signals are listed???

Hey, KWH, does the manual mention what my umpire should put on his halftime brat?

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Oct 17th, 2004 at 11:48 PM]

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Hey, KWH, does the manual mention what my umpire should eat on his halftime brat?

Yes... snickers.

[KWH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Hey, KWH, does the manual mention what my umpire should put on his halftime brat?

Rich-
You appear to have an answer for everything, but fail to provide a solution for any of the issues.
I thought the quesion I ask was pretty legit, so, why don't you prove me wrong and provide some constructive input?
If you forgot the question I will repeat it:
Absent of a microphone, how would you signal to the press box that the winner of the overtime coin toss has elected to go on defense?

[Bob Proctor]

Try this one. I had ovetimes in three of the four youth games I refereed this weekend. I conduct the coin toss, give the options, turn the teams backs to their goals, face the press box and point to the team that won the toss stating, "Red wins the toss". I then turn and signal first down in the direction we will start the overtime.

If White chooses to defend a goal first, it will be evident when I point to them and say, "White wins the toss" and then indicate first down towards them.. This also puts you on the correct end of the field as a team on offense first in an overtime will not start at their own ten yard line. Who knows, but it works for me.

[Deep]

Originally posted by KWH

Since we are on the subject, I am trying to determine a signal for when faced with an overtime coin toss the winning captain chooses defense!!!
Restated, when faced with an overtime situation it is clear that the winner of the toss may choose offense, defense, or choose which goal the series will be played at.
1) My best guess the signal for choosing a goal is the same method as described above.
2) I was told or read somewhere the signal for choosing offense is to place a ball to the players chest and then signal first down.
3) However, the most common option of the winning captain in overtime is to choose defense. Whats the signal???
Can anybody direct me to where the proper overtime signals are listed??? [/B][/QUOTE]

KWH,

Here's the best description I've been able to find. This comes from page 114 of the 2004 CCA 7 man Football Officiating Manual in the "Extra Periods" section:

" The referee indicates the toss winner by placing his hand on the shoulder of the appropriate captain. The options (offense, defense or end of field) are explained to and obtained from the winning captain. The remaining option is given to the captain of the team losing the toss.
Once the choices are determined, the referee instructs the captain of the team starting on offense to face the opponent's goalline. The other captain faces his opponent's goalline. The referee gives a first down signal in the direction the offensive team will be advancing."

This seems workable to me.