Grounding/touching multiple foul

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Fed rules. (This is pretty easy under NCAA rules...)

Score A20-B17. A's ball 4/10 @ A5, < 1 min remaining in the game. A's QB drops back into the endzone intending to take a safety after chewing up a little bit of clock, but he panics and throws a pass nowhere NEAR any eligible receiver. An A lineman, fearing the pass will be picked off, bats the pass to the ground at the A3.

What are B's options? (In particular, consider rule 10-5-4.)

[waltjp]

Illegal touching. This is not an illegal pass. Illegal touching is a spot foul at the spot where the touch occurred.

B's options are -

Penalize A 5 yards (or 1/2 the distance) from the spot of the touch and loss of down, B 1st and goal from A 1 1/2.

Decline the penalty and take over, 1st and goal from the 5.


[Edited by waltjp on Oct 7th, 2004 at 07:34 AM]

[Texoma_LJ]

I agree, assuming the lineman is still in or behind the neutral zone.

[ABoselli]

Why isn't this an illegal pass? From my recollection, it doesn't have to cross the NZ to qualify - just being thrown nowhere near an eligible to save loss of yardage is good enough.

Even though B will eschew the safety, it should be an option.

[Edited by ABoselli on Oct 7th, 2004 at 10:07 AM]

[cmathews]

If you have an illegal pass B can't eschew the safety, however if you have both, I guess you do have a multiple foul therefore they get the choice... It is certainly one of those had to be there plays...tough to say that it wouldn't have made it near an eligible receiver since the lineman knocked it down....

[Theisey]

Valid point taken, but in the play statement it seems clear that team-A eligible recievers are nowhere in the area.

There would be two foul options presented to team-B

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Theisey
Valid point taken, but in the play statement it seems clear that team-A eligible recievers are nowhere in the area.

There would be two foul options presented to team-B

I agree, IG and IT.

[ABoselli]

Cmatthews,

I thought they made the change that if it were an IP from the EZ, B could decline and take over at the previous spot (since it was fourth down).

That didn't used to be the case, but I think it was two seasons ago that they made that change.

[Theisey]

Al, that illegal pass from the EZ option is provided for by NCAA rules, not NF rules.
NF says safety regardless of penalty being accepted or declined by Team-B. Not much of an option is it.

[mnref]

Originally posted by Theisey
Al, that illegal pass from the EZ option is provided for by NCAA rules, not NF rules.
NF says safety regardless of penalty being accepted or declined by Team-B. Not much of an option is it.

I think the defense can decline the penalty...

R 10-5-4...If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind the goal line, it is a safety

I guess it's all how you read the rule but I interpret that as the defense having the option of declining it.

[cmathews]

ABoselli,
I read some more on it today, 8-5-2c made it clear to me why the declination of a penalty would still be a safety. In the event of an illegal forward pass the basic spot is the end of the run. The end of the run is the succeeding spot if the penalty is declined, so therefore, even if B declines the penalty, A would still be in possesion of the ball in the endzone, and thus a safety...It always kind of confused me before, but today someone turned the switch one LOL...

[Theisey]

OK, sure they can decline it... but where does the rule say to next spot of the ball if they do?
(hint: see 7.5.3)

[Snake~eyes]

They can decline it but it still results in a saftey, if I recall correctly that was a question on the test. Accepting it is better because it is a lot easier to explain and most people would get confused if they declined it.

[SJoldguy]

You always have the choice of accepting the penalty or the result of the play (declining). An illegal pass from the endzone almost always results in a safety. If accepted it measurement is from the spot in the endzone and therefore a safety. If, as normally happens, the pass is incomplete, the result of the play means you spot the ball at the end of the run. An illegal pass is a running play be defintion so the end of the run is in the endzone. Result safety. When can B prevent getting the safety? This example is one of them, accept the other foul. Another example is if passer A1, in his endzone, throws the ball to prevent a loss of yardage, and that pass is intecpted, B can decline and take the result of the play.

[ABoselli]

I was thinking about this last night and I discovered I was mixed up on the whole "who can decline what" thing. Pisses me off when I post wrong info.

The thing that I had been thinking of was if B was behind by, say, 4 points late in the game and there was a hold by A in their end zone during a play in which they turned the ball over and it resulted in a score for B, it used to be that B had to decline A's foul, but then they changed it to say that B didn't have to decline A's foul - they could accept it, get the safety, and get the ball back after a free kick.

You guys are right on the illegal pass from the end zone - it is always a safety whether or not B declines or accepts the penalty. An illegal pass is a run by definition, and the run ended in the end zone.