I coach a youth team of 8-9 yr olds. We had a bad crew working our last game and I thought I understood to rules well. We play under HSFED rules, with only weight and mercy rules being added on top of those.

We got a penalty at the end of the game with 45 sec left, for hitting the center when the other team was trying to take a knee. The Umpire said we could not contact the center when the QB was taking a knee. Oh, the hit cause the other team to fumble, which we recovered (NG).

1st I have no idea where that rule is? Any help?

2nd If the other team does not tell the D line this is going to occur, how can this be enforced?

Did the Umpire and his crew confuse this with some other formation?

Is there a review that can be requested or sent to some sort of evaluation process? This group was awful and the group they come from needs to be aware of it. Other causes of concern, they lost the down count 9 times, said free blocking zone was 4 yds deep and 7 wide, holding on defense was 5 yd penalty while it was 10 on Offense, we could not have MORE than 7 on the LOS, huddles may proceed with as many players as a team wants - not a timeout near the coaches box, the other team huddled 14-16 players and would break the huddle and the extra players would run off the field- many times 1 or 2 were still on field as the snap occured- no flag, coaches could go out on field to give play calls to the players - again no time out called. I believe these guys were just dumb, idiots and not conspiring against us but it looks bad...

The snapper is protected in scrimmage kick formation only which is when there is at least one player 7 or more yards behind the LOS in position to receive a long snap. You mentioned you coach youth football. Our association (in agreement with league officials) have relaxed this to 5 yards since the kids are small and can't snap the ball 7 yards in most cases.

I can't comment on the rest only to say you should contact your local officials association and discuss with them.

This kick formation cannot have a player directly behind (under the center to receive snap), correct?

The play had the QB ready to recieve the snap and a player maybe 5 yds deep.

Actually they were right on this one...there is not an NF rule against having more than 11 players in the huddle.

Also, ljudge is correct that the snapper only gets protection if A is in a scrimmage kick formation.

Just more of the same.
 

I do not know. I was not there. I did not see the play. None of us here did. We do not know what took place to warrant a flag and it could be that you misunderstood what they called also. Maybe there was a flag for unnecessary roughness?

Youth leagues are like snowflakes, they all are different. You would have to talk to the administrators of that league.


Everything you just complained about is what happens in youth football. First of all on timeouts near the coaches’ box, there can be as many players in the huddle as possible. That is a new rule BTW. There is really no rule that says you cannot break a huddle with 12 or more. The rule only talks about leaving the game properly, but "breaking the huddle" in itself is not a foul. As a matter of fact a Referee or Wing has some leeway to decide when that penalty has occurred. And at the youth level I can tell you there is a lot of confusion as to who is in or out of a game. These are 8-9 year olds, not 18-19 year olds in college.

I have a question for you. Did they call every infraction on you? I have yet to work a youth game where the kids on both teams did not have a time where they did not line up properly. I have worked many games where a lineman is illegally downfield on pass plays. Or better yet, might not have proper uniform equipment. But instead of throwing flags, we tell a coach or try our best to not throw a flag when the violation is borderline at best. I understand you might think you have all the rules and know all the rules, but this was just a youth football game. You probably had officials that were young or not very experienced and are still learning the game. And many of the times officials at this level have to deal with coaches that do not know the rules or do not know basic coaching techniques. So if you are so upset, you have the right to complain and should under the process you have talked about. I just have a problem with youth coaches like yourself that complain about things and you are not even aware of the actual rules. I had a coach in a Sunday Youth League I have worked for the past 2 seasons tell me that "crack back blocking was illegal." I even asked him "what did you mean by crack back blocking?" He had not answer and come to find out the league had no such rule. But if I listened to this coach, I would have violated a league rule. And you guys wonder why you have to pay more to get officials to work a percentage of the time officials work during HS games. :rolleyes:

Peace

Check out the thread on "Referees needed in Carroll County MD". After reading this thread are there any question on why they bailed? Coaches at the 8-9 year old level (like children) should be seen and not heard.

Agreed. As this is only my first year, I too can see many issues at the youth level. 'Angry Young Coach' whom most likely didn't see much time when he played, if he played, is screaming at 10 yr olds about some trick play. When we as officials need to remind them over and over on how to line up on the LOS.

Then there is the kid who isn't making his block on the offensive line who is being chastized. Could it be his 3pt stance has his down hand right between his ankles??? Nice base.

Or the coach who wants a marginal call on the opposing team while I continue to tell his players what they just did wrong and try to set them straight.

It's no wonder so many of our youth are resorting to X-Box and Nintendo instead of learning to play a wonderful sport and falling in love with it. I guess after having 'Angry Young Coach' or 'Over the Hill Reliving My Dreams Dad Coach' tear you apart.... Soccer does seem to look good...

No they did not huddle near the sideline, it was a normal huddle between downs. They had 2-4 extra kids in the huddle. The rule 3-7 clearly states that replaced players must leave the field immediately. If they are in a huddle for 15 sec, is that immediately? Then when their replaced players did not get off the field before the snap, they said they had no affect on the play so no foul. The rules clearly say it is illegal substitution.

Holding on Off is different than holding on Def?

Clipping 5yds past the hash on a reverse sweep is in the free blocking zone? When asked about it, the ref said the FBZ was 7 yds wide and 4 deep. It is hard enough to try and teach kids this game, and then have to deal with a total lack of caring on the ref part.

We drew 2 flags for having 9 men on the LOS, and were told we could only have 7, no more no less. BUNK. Maybe they thought it was the NFL, and never awoke from their dream...

When are the coaches allowed on the field? Before, after the game, at halftime, and during timeouts. So why is their no flag when they walk out on to the field during the break between downs? Not just once, but almost every down.

We had a warning for 5 people in the coaches box, 3 coaches and 2 subs. This should have been a flag by rules, but I guess if our coaches were on the field instead of the box, it would have been better huh?

It is really funny to me that all I get is chastised for asking about the rules? I guess what I read somewhere is true, you guys are mostly doing this for the power trip. Sad example you are setting.

Oh FYI, we won the game by 5 on an interception return after the take a knee BS penalty. Yeah, going to take a knee and then after a 30 yd penalty, 15 for hitting the center, and 15 unsportsmanship on our HC, they decided to try and run up the score. The outcome does not alter my view of the poor job that was done. It would be a shame for this to happen to another team. Another ol' boys group not going to try to improve, just happy with how it is.... shameful!

Pardon me ljudge and JRutledge, I did not mean to lump you in with the others. I got some answers from you and thanks for sharing.

Someone was probably filming. Take the tape to your governing body. They are the ones who need to be appraised if things aren't right.

This is not about me personally. But all you are doing is whining like a baby like this was the NFL. These are kids. I work 3 sports and if I was as strict with the rules at the youth levels as we are with the varsity and college levels, we never end a game. You have to use some common sense as it relates to kiddy ball. I do not think your team was put at a great disadvantage because there were more than 11 in the huddle. That rule was put in place to help not deceive the defense as to who is on the field. I am sure kids that are 8 and 9 years old are not confused by who is on the field and who is not on the field by who is in the huddle. If you think it is, I guess you have been watching too much TV. I have yet to see the personnel group that complicated to figure out at that level. I wonder if you had more than one coach talking to the officials, should the officials have thrown the "assistants" out of the game because they were not the head coach. You realize that only the head coach can do certain things, should they flag you and throw them out for violating any part of that rule?

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Peace

Dirk, if your youth group (at least for the 8-9 age group)is anything like the group my son plays on the problem is the youth group, not the refs. What I mean by this is that they don't want to pay for "real" officials. They have high school aged kids out there that mix up the rules from NFHS, NCAA and NFL. It's not the officials fault in this case, they don't get the training or the number of games that the officials on this post get. As a dad, it is frustrating to watch these guys mess up on calls, but as an official I see them doing the same thing on both sides of the ball. I'm not sure if this is the case, but I'd be willing to bet that it is. If you have a problem with it, which it appears you do, talk to your organization about hiring trained officials. If you are getting the officials from an association and they are giving you the real green guys, ask for them to provide an experienced white hat to help control the game. Most importantly, remember these are 3rd and 4th grade kids, teach them the basics as well as you can and HAVE FUN.

Nice. There are bad apples in any bushel basket Dirk. We have two undefeated youth teams which are very well coached and a pleasure to work with. We also have a number of 'Angry Young Coaches' as well.

We do the little guy stuff pro bono. My typical weekly schedule is 2 little guy games each on Tuesday and Wednesday.

Thursday I work a JV or Middle School game. Friday I may travel up to 4 hours to work a Varsity game. Saturday is typically one or even two of the smaller HS lower games in our area.

This past weekend my crew and I worked a Varsity game Friday night out of State. And then three games beginning at 9am with a 10 minute break between games. Think 12 quarters straight of 8th grade, Freshman and JV then a 2 hour ride home early Saturday evening.

With an average of 4 games per week with all of the travel involved, coupled with 2 nights out of the house working 4 little guy games for nothing, I hear all kinds of complaints from coaches. Some with merit. Some without merit. What's ironic is the fact it is the very same coaches who are on the field while working the officials hollering about our badly missed calls, and then telling me "Good no-call ref!" when it's a foul on HIS team! lol

Officiating is a difficult job with little thanks other than the fact we love the sport, the players interact courteously and seem to enjoy having us there and most of all we enjoy being on the field with them. It isn't the coaches or fans Dirk. No power trip. You've missed the whole thing about officiating as well as coaching. It's the kids.

Coaching a youth league doesn't make anyone a Vince Lombardi no matter how long they work on their trick plays at that level.

You may not find the sympathy you're looking for here Dirk, based upon the "attitude" of your own postings and what we as officials hear from many of the coaches when we step onto the field. Your postings could come from any sideline in Small-town, USA on any Friday night.

I will tell you there are good coaches out there as well. As well as good and bad officials like in any sport. You would be far better served to seek answers from the groups association who officiated your contests. Not from here.

From here we get to see only one side. Please excuse us, or me specifically, for not jumping on your bandwagon to rip another official.

I feel very comfortable in the fact you "work the refs" much like anyone else. Whom doesn't want all of the calls to go in their favor, right?

8-9 yr olds you're coaching, huh? Why not address these issues with someone that can make a difference in your area? Or possibly set an example to your 8-9 yr olds and play through the adversity and then request to not have the same crew work your youth league?

It sounds like Dirk had legitimate beefs.

I also know that the most experienced guys aren't always the ones working these games and that if they are getting these items wrong, it should be addressed, because they aren't always going to be doing youth games (well, maybe this bunch might, but you get my meaning).

My advice would be to find out who in their local association is the person to talk to regarding assigning of officials for their games and take it up with him in a calm, business-like manner.

My level of patience with zealous youth coaches is generally lower than whale ****, but if there is a valid concern, it should be addressed, just as we would want them to address a valid concern we may have.

That being said, I turned in my last two weekends of youths this year due in no small part to coaches/fans. Ay carumba, folks. The kids are generaly better behaved than the adults.

Can't help but to admire the ripping you get from parents for not making a call a parent saw, and when you do make the call against their kid it's, "C'mon let'em play they're just kids for Gawds sake!" :D

Had a great game two saturdays ago. 7-7 at the end of Reg. Wound up 13-7 in OT.
There were a number of fouls on both teams but pretty much evened out although I did call a TD back (by the winning team) on a ply where the coach was already yelling at the kid before the flag hit the ground.
After the game we had one of those of whom you speak yelling on us for "not letting them play" and "calling all those penalties".
I would love once just to tell someone like that that "those fouls wern't on the list of 'don't call these tonight' that the coaches gave us before the game"
Well maybe just before I retire. Along with the idea of calling one game strictly by the rules.......

Dirk,
I'll answer your questions with this caveat, my answers are only in reference to NFHS rules and may be incorrect in terms of your particular youth league. Also, I am not going to issue any comments as to the officials you had working your game as I was not there to observe and it is unethical.

1. <i>1st I have no idea where that rule is? Any help?</i>

There is no rule that says the snapper cannot be contacted when the QB takes a knee. The rule that is in place is for the protection of the snapper when the offense is in a scrimmage kick formation with one player at least 7 yards deep and there is no one in place to take a direct hand to hand snap from the snapper. It is possible that a personal foul/late hit could be called if the defense hit the snapper after the play became dead. Rule is 9-4-5.

2. <i>said free blocking zone was 4 yds deep and 7 wide</i>

The free blocking zone is 3 yards deep extending beyond and behind the neutral zone. Hence, it is 6 yards deep (lengthwise). It is 4 yards extending towards each sideline from the ball. Hence, it is 8 yards wide (laterally). The zone exists only from the snap and until the ball has left the zone. Rule is 2-17-1.

3. <i>holding on defense was 5 yd penalty while it was 10 on Offense</i>

All holding fouls are 10 yard fouls for both the defense and offense. Offense is rule 9-2-1c. Defense is rule 9-2-3c.

4. <i>we could not have MORE than 7 on the LOS</i>

The <b>minimum</b> number of players allowed on the line is 7. The maximum number would be 10 as by rule you must have someone in the backfield to receive the snap. The rule is 7-2-5a.

5. <i>huddles may proceed with as many players as a team wants - not a timeout near the coaches box, the other team huddled 14-16 players and would break the huddle and the extra players would run off the field- many times 1 or 2 were still on field as the snap occured- no flag,</i>

This year a new rule was established which allows the coaches, attendants and all team members to gather within 5 yards of the sideline directly infront of the team box during timeouts. The old rule still exists that only one coach and three attendants may come to a huddle with 11 players between the hash marks. Rule is 2-6-2a. There is no rule in NFHS about breaking the huddle with more than 11 players.

The rule is that a replaced player must immediately leave the field. This is usually considered to be between 3 to 5 seconds after notification. This is the official HFHS interpretation. The rule is 2-30-15.

One can be a technical official and call it by the book or one can be a good official and call it by the tenor of the game. I say that because if you have replaced players who are attempted to leave the field when the ball is snapped and they are within a few yards of the sideline then there is no reason to flag it. The key to a good or great official is the one who recognizes the unfair advantage and calls it appropriately. If the players were standing on field and not attempting to leave at the snap then it should be flagged. There is really no rule to this other than good game sense.

6. <i>coaches could go out on field to give play calls to the players - again no time out called</i>

During the dead ball period between the end of a play and the marking of ready for play I personally have no problem with a coach stepping on the field for a few yards to instruct or give the play to a player. Again, this falls under the unfair advantage aspect. Is the team gaining an unfair advantage by the coach stepping on the field during a dead ball to give a player the next play and then stepping off the field before the next snap? I don't think so. Now what about the coach who doesn't step off the field and the ball is snapped. I have a problem with this and it is a safety issue. I have seen in the past many collisions between wing officials and coaches on the field in which someone was hurt.

I hope that I have answered your questions about rules to your satisfaction. I would also recommend that you have a discussion with someone who is in charge with the youth league about you concerns.

I understand it is never a perfect game. But we teach the kids to do their best everytime. We know they will make mistakes and what we want them to do is learn from it. It is not too much to ask the same from the officials.

Are officials are all members in good standing with one of the associations that judge HS games. We do get many untested and lower experienced refs, but generally get at least 1 veteran official. We are suppose to get a review form from them, strangely they forgot it, the coaches and players get reviewd by the officials as well. Our playoff qualifier is first based on these reviews mainly rooted in sportmanship and then go to the records. I like this system and what its goal is. If our coaches were to abuse (verbally) or teach and promote illegal and unsafe techniques, these reviews would highlight it and could draw a league suspension after the review process on a bad review. The only consequence of the poor ref job is the following year's contract. This is disappointing. There should be some sort of review and consequence for a poor job. Not neccessarily monatary. I take pride in my job and in my coaching. I have no son in the program.

And on teaching kids about fighting through diversity, how do you think we won the game. The kids never quit or gave in. That is the best part of this particular game. It would have been easy for them to quit and say the refs robbed them, but they did not. They played to the end, to the best of their abilities, and in the end, it is all we as coaches, ask of our kids, in our program.

Thanks SoGaRef,

That was the info I was first looking for. I was not sure if different areas of the rule book may have come into play, and confused the issue. Is sound like my major concerns are valid.

Wow, do you promise there will be consequences? Like staying home and not working these games at all. Would that be favor or a gift?

Peace

Not working these games may be better than what happened. If there is no pride in doing a job to the best of ones abilities, then yes no work. Kinda like the real world, if you do not do a good job someone else will get yours. Get off the power trips. If other coaches in my organization were not treating the players with respect (which is the case at the moment- suspension occuring for lack of respect toward refs during a game) or teaching dangerous techniques, I would be raising it to our board of directors. One would think the officials might care what other members of their group are doing, and be upset if there are members not doing their best.

You guys have this stereotype of the youth coach and complain that coaches have you pegged under a stereotype. All that is accurate, but neither is the correct way to judge. It would be much better if each case were unique, but I can see sadly that is not the case. But please just continue on, attack, attack, for I am just another dumb youth coach, err whinning youth coach.

Dirk - most of the fouls you are talking about are the same fouls I ignore in most youth games (especially the under 10 games). Too many in the huddle? (Or actually, illegal sub) If we called this every time, the game would never end. The rule says the substituted player must leave "immediately", but in youth ball, that word is stretched a lot. And if the extra kids did not disrupt the play (ie, they were running off and didn't affect either A) the actual play or B) the defensive formation), I'm not calling it either.

Clipping? You actually saw clipping? I've called HS ball for a while and have yet to actually call clipping (it was called ONCE by R in a game I was in). I now assume you really meant a block in the back. I'm right with you there. I call that at youth if I see it - it's a safety issue. (If it was minor, and far from the play, it might get ignored ... but my standard there is no different at 7-8 as it is at varsity - it's gotta be VERY minor to not get a flag).

Their enforcements? Well... that sucks - sorry to hear they are employing guys that don't at least know the proper enforcements.

Our jobs at youth ball are different from our jobs at varsity. At V, you expect ALL of the kids not to break the rules, and you enforce much more strictly. At youth, our jobs are to make sure the games are officiated FAIRLY, and to limit injury-causing fouls where possible (and often - to help the coach get the kids in line. Can't tell you how many times I've leaned over my shoulder and said, "Coach - you've got 4 guys in the neutral zone", and then not called it when the play started.)

OK, whatever.
 

Dirk,

I officiate to have fun and to do the best job I can. I do not officiate to have some coach that has only coached a youth team, never attended a rules meeting, never taken a rules test, never officiated a varsity or college game, trying to tell me what the rule is based on what he saw on Sunday. Or better yet, what he heard from an announcer. If you do not want the officials working the game, then you just might get more guys that do not know what they are doing or even care. It is youth football after all and it is not the major goal of most officials to get a playoff game at the youth level. Most officials have other things to do and youth sports are an addition if they have time outside of their other activities. This is usually the place the younger and less experienced officials start their career, but soon progress to HS or college possibly. I just find coaches like you a blast to have a conversation with because you treat this level as if it would devastate the officials to not work your games. I am sure there are many here that love working youth football. But most of the veterans I know truly dislike these games and your attitude is one of the reasons.

Have a great season.

Peace

Oftentimes you will find that the officials working "pee-wee" games are new officials. They aren't dumb. They simply haven't had a practical chance to apply the rules to the game yet. That's why they are working pee-wee games.

I recall my first year as an official when I was working a pee-wee game with another first year guy. I'm sure the coaches had the same impression about us :)

JRutledge

I have been happy with the officiating in most of the games I have been involved with. This was the exception. Most of the officials have been helpful in teaching the game. But don't throw a flag at us for delay of game when we were late by 5 sec or so and then allow the other team to have longer huddles and not remove the replaced players, or allow the coaches from the other team to have a huddle on the sideline without calling a time out. Flags that are thrown for any infraction, should the HC ask who it was on, should be able to be identified, not have the official shrug his shoulders and say not sure(repeatedly throughout the game to both coaches), how the officials cannot keep track of downs is beyond me, and again not just 1 time, repeatedly. The clipping was clipping, although not intential by the other team, a trip caused it, but still a foul because of the proximity to the ballcarrier. I don't believe intent has any bearing on the foul, except spearing. We did not get our calls from the announcer, we got our calls from the officials. At one point the official asked if he should get out the rule book, we said please and gave him ours to show us the rule. He huffed away.

If officiating is so unfulfilling for so many, don't do it. If the coaches make it so unbarrable, you really should go do something else, or get some rules in the leagues to address it. But if it is too hard to call it even at the youth level, then you have no business at the HS or above level.

I would submit that sometimes it's HARDER to officiate youth ball than varsity. Because if you officiate "normally", you'd NEVER get a play off. Literally never.

So it's ok, Dirk, to you for the official to not flag your delay of game, but it's not ok to you for him to ignore players running off the side of the field that are not involved in the play? Ridiculous, and hypocritical.

I do agree with some of your comments (they should get the downs right, they should know the fouls they are calling, etc), but the rest is nonsense.

PS - clipping - did he fall on your player after being tripped (sounds like, from your description, that he did)? That's not clipping. Clipping is BLOCKING below the waist, in the back. Sounds like a no-call to me too (even at higher levels).

REPLY: Dirk, I can appreciate your frustration, but the hard reality is this: The officials who read and post on this board (many do it year-round) are completely dedicated to the avocation of officiating. They take what they do seriously. I've personally been doing it for 27 years and know that there is still more to learn. I approach every game with the same "do-your-best" attitude. I'd venture to guess that it's the same with everyone reading this post. It would be nice to think that all officials should be perfect in attitude, diligent in learning, and flawless in execution. But such thinking is "Pollyanna-ish." Frankly, and some officials are ashamed to admit it, all officials' associations include "haves" and "have-nots." Some officials are just too new and inexperienced to perform at a consistently high level. As others have said, often it is these young men and women who learn on-the-job in your youth league and others like it around the country. It's a training ground for young football officials no less than it is for young football players. Just as your young men are going to make mistakes in executing a play, these young well-meaning officials will make mistakes as well. And unfortunately, there are also other officials who may at one time have had a very positive and professional attitude, but who for some reason no longer put as much into it as they once did. They may no longer dedicate themselves to improvement or constant learning. The result, sadly, is apparent in their performance.

You ever wonder why.......?
 

It is unfulfilling at the youth level. The only thing that is good about it is the money. And if some of the leagues did not pay so well, you would never find officials. See at the HS levels and college levels the pressure goes up, but everyone is accountable. If coaches act out of line, not only can the officials handle them, so will the state. You want officials that could not give a damn (really could not give a damn) about what you think to call everything to the tee. I bet you have never gotten a play off in the subscribed 25 seconds, but you want the officials to get picky about rules you think are important. I work three sports and work year round. I have decided that I do not want to work youth sports anymore because of people like you. I would rather work a game that is in the paper or at the college level and deal with that pressure than some coach that thinks he is the next Knute Rockne coaching his "superstar kid." Guys like you totally ruin the experience at the youth level experience and leagues like yours create rules and situations that are never enforced at any other level (striper rules for example).

If you do not like the officials, find someone that cares. I know I do not give a damn about your whining behind. This is a hobby for most of us. This is not our job or our main profession. It is not important for me to make you happy. I know many officials that feel the same way and leave leagues like yours alone. Funny, you never seem to find this kind of shortage of officials for the varsity and college levels. I wonder why?

Peace

And here's the rub, Dirk. Attitudes like what you've posted here are part of what chases off the better officials (like, perhaps, Rut), and is the CAUSE of the inferiority, at times, of youth officiating.

Is it clipping when a ball carrier is being pursued by a tackler, and the tackler is brought down from behind by the ball carrier's team, with first contact about knee level? If not, I am sorry, but it is a penalty.

There's the rub, you only do it because the money's good Jrut. Shame on you, take some pride in what you do.

If my attitude offends you guy here, pardon me, but I would like people to care about about what they do as much as I do. I am out there on my time, without getting paid, and I don't have dreams of working full time at a higher level. I enjoy working with the young kids and have for a number of years now. My son has moved on and out of the program and I enjoy teaching this game. We improve every game and have had some championships and some losing seasons. This game teaches character which is sadly lacking in most of childrens' activities these days. We want the kids to own up to mistakes they make and learn from them. Most of the officials do this, and say sorry about that call or non call, and do a even job on thw whole. This group, after watching the game tape did do an even job, unfortunately is was an evenly bad job and do not seem to care. Not the example we want our team to aspire to.

Dirk, we're not going to care what you think if you continue to insist that it's ok (and proper) for officials to let certain fouls go in PeeWee (the ones against your team), but we should rule to the letter of the law in others (the ones for your team). And we're going to care even less when you make up penalties. Go read the definition of clipping please. And 8 year old being tripped and falling on another 8 year old is not clipping, regardless of whether one was about to make a play or not.

What are these fouls that I think are ok to not be called on us? We got a flag for delay of game. What I said if that flag was going to be thrown, then the flags against the other team needs to be thrown. What I what is an even interpretation of the rules. Call everything is fine, just do it on both sides of the ball. What happened is fouls on the northside of the field went 4 to 1 against us. It is where we got a few ghost calls, can't find it on the tapes and the officials when asked who it was on, just shrugged and said they did know. When you see they can't keep track of the downs, and don't know the penalty markoffs, I am guilty of looking deeper at other calls. You all agree that some of my complaints are not warranted, but if it were just a ghost call or a non call, it would not be a big deal, but it was the sum total. You can pick every call and non-call apart individually, but not the point at all.

On Clipping rule 2-5, 1 says "clipping is a block against an opponent when initial contact is from behind, at or below waist, and not against a player who is a runner or pretending to be a runner." Hmm tackled from behind at about knee level...seems to match the discription. It doesn't say not a foul if the kids trips into the back. But Art. 3 does say it is not clipping unless the official doesn't see initial contact. So, I guess you have your out. Congrats

The losing team has also lodged complaints now. The league had an observer at the game as part of a coaches review, and they concurred with the complaints, so maybe something will happen to prevent this crew from returning. The league reports to the officials union on these type of things, and there is some sort of discipline at the union level. So, maybe they will have more than just a slap on the wrist for screwing up a youth game, I can only hope.

Dirk,

Bob M. pointed out that the officials you are communicating with here pretty much actually care about calling a fair and consistent game and we take pride in doing a good job. We won't comment on the performance of another official because we aren't witnesses to the game. More often than not, we've found that those who come here to complain are wrong or haven't given us the information we need or misinform us of the events that occured. This isn't the first complaint lodged against the "unknown officials".

Some more ideas that come to mind:

In your game, the officials might have told your players that the other team was taking a knee and penalized your team for the hit. Telling the defense that the other team might take a knee is a common practice to prevent rough play.

Also, at the 8/9 year old level, getting a play called and the proper players in is often messy at best. When I officiate, I won't have a delay of game foul because I am not whistling the ready-for-play until both teams have the proper players in the huddle. If players are leaving the game at the snap and it doesn't create an advantage to the opponents (nobody covers them), then I won't flag it. If coaches come onto the field to call a play and stay near the sidelines, I've got no problem with it as long as a coach isn't in my ear about my officiating.

Getting Pro rules mixed in with high school rules makes it sound like you had a full crew of rookie officials. In my first year, I OFTEN made this mistake. It also sounds like rookie officials because they were losing track of the downs and doing other things experienced officials don't do. If they are experienced and make these mistakes, then you are dealing with incompetence.

If you want to complain, chances are your league has some sort of board of directors or administration. Chances are they also also have someone who assigns the officials.

But I'd like to offer a suggestion. Make sure it really mattered in the grand scheme of life. Don't let your anger about it force you into something silly. Your players will always have to deal with people in positions of authority they might consider incompetent and learning how to deal with that might be a good lesson to learn at the young age of 8/9.

Good. Now go read the definition of block.

You've changed your description of this "clip" 3 times now. And we're supposed to believe your giving us an unbiased account of what happened at this game. If what you have told us about the officiating of this game is even 50% true, you have legitimate complaint. Take it to the head of the youth group with a video of the game. But don't come on here and tell us how we officials don't care. The officials on this board love what they do and are on here to better themselves. Regardless, you must realize at the 8-9 age group level, you are going to get officials that are new and still learning the rules. It's a fact (I guess it could happen), NFL & NCAA officials will not be working these games. I'm sure you were perfect as a coach from the start, but it takes us officials several games to reach your level. Stop crying and go coach your kids and please remember to teach them to have fun.

You know what Dirk......
 

you have to be one of the dumbest posters I have ever read on this site. When I officiate my varsity football game tomorrow, I will have to leave my house around 2:00 PM and not get home until if I am lucky before 12 Midnight. Instead of going out dealing with customers and making potentially thousands of dollars at my "real job,” I go sacrifice to make a messily 80 bucks. I will make $75 on Sunday (which I will not see any of the money until late October) for almost half the time in a Youth League and I would rather stay at home and be able to watch an NFL game on my only real day off. And this week alone I attended 3 meetings for associations that I belong and got paid nothing to attend. And you have the nerve to say, "This is for the money." I also have not mentioned the investment in dues for associations and uniform and gas cost that take to officiate. I live in one of the highest gas price areas in the country. The gas prices are now around my house is $2.09 the highest it has been in a long time and you have the nerve to question what the cost I consider for officiating. At least the game I will do tomorrow might help me get a playoff game and some day and State Final Game possibly in the future. Your youth game will do nothing but bring my headache and wish I was watching a real game on TV that I am interested in.

You know what, all this other BS that you are trying to tell us about what the officials should or should not do is all more crap. No one cares. I am sure the officials in your area do not care about your concerns. If you want good officials to work your game, stop acting like a tool when you think you know more than those that put hundreds of hours into an avocation or hobby. I never have to officiate anything if I do not want to. Sorry, what it will cost me is a factor for me. I know it is for other people. Your attitude makes it more difficult to lose money or enjoy personal time working a youth football game.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Oct 7th, 2004 at 11:51 AM]

I spent almost 14 years in a peewee league, in a variety of positions and responsibilities including calling games when we werent financially able to afford certified officials. Seems like those were the good old days.
This past year I decided to return to officiating not for the money, but for three things, the love of the game (gotta love the Friday night lights and the sound of pads cracking like thunder), I am always looking for something that is mentally stimulating (not to be confused with mind-numbing with some of the situations presented on here), and to find a hobby that allows me to contribute to the development of our children.
Dirk, I've read, and read and I keep asking myself... do the "ends" justify the "means"? What is it that you want in the end? Are the kids as bent out of shape about this as you seem to be? Seems like alot of effort for an 8-9 year old football league. The word "priorities" comes to mind, and obviously mine are alot different than yours. I cannot understand what it is that your kids are going to gain by all this.
I have learned alot on here lately, probably foremost, is that there are alot of folks on here that are EXTREMELY dedicated to "getting it right". When you come on here and place judgement on on of our own, it is not going to sit well with alot of people. To ask a question of an official is fine, but when you question an official as you have done is not going to sit well.
Why not do this... call all your parents, and have them go to the league officals until your happy. I am sure if it as improtant to them as it is to you... then they will be glad to help you in your cause.

LOL

If you go back to the original post, it was about gaining a better understanding of the rules. Then read the answers or lack there of. Respect is a two way street, and it is not something one gains by position, it is earned.

You got one thing right.
 

You are exactly right, respect is earned. You are a youth football coach that does not take a rules test. You do not coach at a league that holds much accountability and you obviously do not know the rules or the way games are called by your post. You are right; you have earned no ones respect here by your attitude and your positions. I personally do not look for respect from youth coaches.

This is not your league; remember you are on an officiating forum.

Peace

And with 11 posts, all in this thread, and none elsewhere, you might want to settle back a bit before you talk about earning respect. JRut, while he has his haters, has at least on this site earned the respect of an official that knows the rules. I hope I've somewhat done the same.

You, you may be the best youth coach ever ... but you've not proven that here or earned respect here, and are not likely to do so by some of the commentary you've published in this thread.

Just a couple of thoughts to share. We always ask the quarterback if he is taking a knee, most officials pretty much know when this is appropriate. If the Q says he is taking a knee we tell the defense and tell them to stay off their blocks "IF" he takes a knee. If he says he isn't, we tell the defense nothing and the play goes like any other. In the very very rare occurance that the Q doesn't take a knee after telling the referee he will, we flag that as unsportsmanlike. If you say it to me it had better be the truth. That way we almost totally avoid any dangerous play ... and isn't safety our most important business?

REPLY: We have a slightly different approach. We all tighten up to the line of scrimmage. We tell both teams, "Play ball and protect yourselves!" As soon as the QB has shown control of the ball and goes down, we blow and jump in. Some questions about your technique:
1. How do you handle a situation where the defense has relaxed because of what you tell them and the QB muffs the snap? Can you defend what you've told the defense in such a case?
2. In the rare event that the QB 'fakes' going to a knee, runs for a TD, and you call it USC, how do you enforce since USC is by rule enforced from the succeeding spot?

Bob, this is the approach I like to take, tell the offense to protect themselves, telling the defense to take it easy can lead to problems.

I was thinking the same thing you cited in 2. of your response.

If the offense is taking a knee, why do you need to hit anybody?

The answer is you don't. Flag the offender.

I don't know how it works in a lot of other places, but in our association we use the youth football to begin the training process ... for officials as well as coaches. No one coaching or officiating knows very much about the rules, philosophy, etc. As long as you officiat you will have to face the fact that in youth football you are going to hear things that will make no sense at all from coaches AND fellow officials. Use those opportunities to teach when possible. As you move up the officiating food chain you will find that the quality of the coaching as well as the officials you work with improves dramatically.

You think you had it bad? We actually had a president of the Pop Warner conference in our area who figured we should #1 put the best officials in the assoc. on his games instead of on HS varsity games and #2 figured we should be the ones to go up into the stands and resolve fight between parents.

Some folks have paid their dues, some are beginning to pay theirs. Which one are you?

PERSONAL FOUL?
 

If you warn the defense after the first offense, and they do it again...

OK, guys. The Unsportsmanlike foul for not taking a knee when you have been told it will be done is on the coach. When, especially at the youth level, have you not seen a "knee" called by the coach. Our coaches know what is going on and have never complained, primarily because they understand the safety aspect of the play.

To Dirk; I'd be willing to bet that you've never attended a training meeting conducted by the officials' association. It sounds like you've diligently read the book and only have a slight clue about interpretation, enforcement, and less about philosophy.

Just for your entertainmnet, why not contact the officials' association in your area and ask them if you can take their tests. You will learn two things from this, what you know and, more importantly, what you don't know.

Having offiated for 25 years, let me give you a bit of advice, honest advice. I am willing to bet that seasoned officials are listening to you less and less. The one thing that will turn officials off faster than you can imagine is a coach who tries to impress us with how much they know about our job. We will never try to impress you with how much we know about coaching because, DUH, we are not coaches! Remember, shoes are sold in pairs and the opposite shoe in this pair says that coaches are not officials.

Now for your short quiz ... and you only have 5 seconds to answer the questions because that's all we have in a game.

1) How can your team lose 16 yards for a holding call?
2) How does "all but 1" apply to PSK?

Done? Remember, identifying the things you don't know and then finding a quiet time after a game to ask a seasoned referee to explain the rule or enforcement to you will get you a lot more drag on the field when you really need it. Don't work the officials, work with them. In a sense we are both on the same team anyway, working for the same people ... the kids. Why not join the team instead of merely complaining about it? A good wine is a lot more satisfying than a great whine.

Nicely done Bob Proctor. In fact, your above post has given me a bit of insight into the coach. Even though I coached for many years, volleyball from youth up through Elite teams, I've never heard the coach vs. ref or ref vs. coach thing put into the manner you did.

I, for one, was always "working" the Up Ref in VB. Just to let him know I was watching and hoped a few borderline calls would go my way later. (They often did)

Adding, "Coach we're both on the same side." type of comment seems like it might lighten up the sideline from time to time.

Nice post Bob. Thank you.

It's been close to 96 hours... what is the answer?

Under the all-but-one rule, a foul committed by the offense behind the basic spot is enforced from the spot of the foul. Should the offense commit a holding foul 6 yards behind the basic spot, the spot for enforcement is the spot of the foul. Therefore the offense would lose 10 yards for the hold measured from the enforcement spot 6 yards behind the basic spot resulting in a 16 yard loss. I'm sure almost every official south of the 49th got it right.