Darin Hayes "Crunch Time Quiz" Question #1

[karlj2]

In situation K1 misses the ball in an attempt at a scrimmage kick. This action by Ki does not meet any of the definitions of a "fumble" and since the ball clearly is not thrown backward or parallel with or toward the runner's end line (necessary criteria for backward pass) and since it does not matter if a forward pass is thrown over hand or under hand, is this not an incomplete forward pass?

Rule 2-29- Article 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a a pass, the ball travels in flight. Article 2 . . . A forward pass is a pass thrown with its initial direction toward the opponents end line.

[KWH]

Originally posted by karlj2
In situation K1 misses the ball in an attempt at a scrimmage kick. This action by Ki does not meet any of the definitions of a "fumble" and since the ball clearly is not thrown backward or parallel with or toward the runner's end line (necessary criteria for backward pass) and since it does not matter if a forward pass is thrown over hand or under hand, is this not an incomplete forward pass?

Rule 2-29- Article 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a a pass, the ball travels in flight. Article 2 . . . A forward pass is a pass thrown with its initial direction toward the opponents end line.

We need a little more information on the play.
What did the holder do? Is he still holding the ball on the tee?
Or, was this a punt?

[Deep]

I am unclear on what you are talking about. Are you talking about the punter dropping the ball to punt it and then missing kicking it? If so, then yes, this is a fumble.

[karlj2]

I am sorry, I am new to the forum and thought that most of you would have taken the Crunch Time Quiz.

K1 is a punter who misses the ball in attempting to punt.

[KWH]

Originally posted by karlj2
I am sorry, I am new to the forum and thought that most of you would have taken the Crunch Time Quiz.

K1 is a punter who misses the ball in attempting to punt.

It is a fumble!
NFHS 2-18...A fumble is any loss of player possession other than handing, passing or legal kick.

There is no difference between this situation and the ball carrier simply dropping the ball during a run.

[seanireland]

Interesting...You have a player "throwing the ball forward to punt, but the player whiffs" (2-29-1,2,4)
The player is not a kicker because he/she doesn't fit the criteria (2-23-1; 2-30-8). He/she is a back (2-30-3). The situation would have to be carefully considered to call this a pass. Yes, you may meet the criteria that say it is a forward pass. However, common sense says that would be EXTREME. Who is the eligible receiver? Do you call intentional grounding? Was there a gust of wind? Did the player slide in the mud causing the whiff? Is it young kids? Trying to sell this as an incomplete pass better be followed with the intentional grounding penalty etc.
It seems the spirit of the rules would tell us to treat this as a fumble. As a fumble the player can pick up the ball and kick, pass, run, whiff etc. which, I feel, follows the spirit of the play and the game. If we get 'technical' on every play, we all lose. My call is fumble, bean bag, and watch the fun begin...

[karlj2]

I think it is probably a fumble but we used to have a team in this area that ran a tight wing T. The quarterback would regularly pitch the ball forward to a running back behind the line of scrimmage. Some times he would pitch short and the pitch would short hop to the halfback. The coach would get upset every time that we correctly called the pitch a forward pass. I was thinking that this was a similar situation in that the drop for a punt is deliberate and is not simply dropping the ball inadvertently.

In the halfback situation you do not have the specter of intentional grounding because the back is in the area.

[Deep]

I really think you are overthinking the play with the punter. He is simply dropping the ball with the intention of punting it. Even though the ball does indeed travel forward, that is not a throw, not a pass.

[chiefgil]

K's snap is a backwards pass from the center to the punter. If the punter drops, misses, muffs, or anything else other than kicking the ball, it is a live ball.

Assuming the ball is loose behind the LOS...

Who put the ball in that position? K not R.

[karlj2]

In this case the punter did not muff the snap. He caught it had it in his possession and then dropped the ball forward in an attempt to kick it but his drop was off and he whiffed at the ball. All the feedback says that it is a fumble which makes logical sense except for the drop being a deliberate act of "throwing" the ball toward the opponents goal line. I do not think the act fits the rule book definition of a fumble.

Karl

[mikesears]

A foward pass is throwing the ball, not dropping the ball.