Grabbing the Helmets??

rockyroad · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 09:52am

I am a long-time basketball official, and post over on the basketball side , but am new to football stuff. My oldest son decided to play as a freshman this year, so I'm learning as we go...my question and scenario: last night's JV game, the defensive linemen would (about every third play) not even go into a stance (3 or 4 pt), and as the ball was snapped, they would grab the offensive linemen by the back of the helmets and shove their heads down...what - if anything - should the penalty have been??? The crerw (3-person crew) was not calling anything until one of the fans (about 20 of us there) started hollering about lawsuits (no, it was not me) and then the crew "conferenced" and told the coaches of the other team to have the players stop doing that or they would penalize them - so it ended...my kid woke up with a pretty stiff neck this morning, tho...thanks for any info.

Bob M. · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 10:04am

REPLY: From the way you describe it, it would be treated the same as a face mask foul since that restriction is for grasping the face mask "...or any edge of a helmet opening." That means it could be a 5 or 15 yard penalty using the same criteria as you would for a facemask foul. If it was a case of the defense just slapping the helmet, it is still a personal foul, but always 15 yards.

By the way...I love your ice cream!

GeorgiaBlue · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 10:43am

rule 2-3-6

When a player on defense uses a hand or arm, the hand must be in advance fo the elbow at the time of contact and at the shoulder or below unless the opponent squats, ducks, or submarines.

rockyroad · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 11:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by GeorgiaBlue
rule 2-3-6

When a player on defense uses a hand or arm, the hand must be in advance fo the elbow at the time of contact and at the shoulder or below unless the opponent squats, ducks, or submarines.

So is the offensive lineman - coming up out of 3 pt. stance - considered to be "squatting", or is Bob M correct that it should have been a penalty??

Snake~eyes · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 11:28am

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: From the way you describe it, it would be treated the same as a face mask foul since that restriction is for grasping the face mask "...or any edge of a helmet opening." That means it could be a 5 or 15 yard penalty using the same criteria as you would for a facemask foul. If it was a case of the defense just slapping the helmet, it is still a personal foul, but always 15 yards.

Bob, I'm not so sure I agree, I think he is saying that the helmet was grabbed, not any of the openings or facemask.

GeorgiaBlue · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 11:28am

i'd call a penalty.

Snake~eyes · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 12:54pm

Quote:

Originally posted by GeorgiaBlue
i'd call a penalty.

What penalty?

tchaap · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 01:24pm

Illegal use of hands

James Neil · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
I am a long-time basketball official, and post over on the basketball side , but am new to football stuff. My oldest son decided to play as a freshman this year, so I'm learning as we go...my question and scenario: last night's JV game, the defensive linemen would (about every third play) not even go into a stance (3 or 4 pt), and as the ball was snapped, they would grab the offensive linemen by the back of the helmets and shove their heads down...what - if anything - should the penalty have been??? The crerw (3-person crew) was not calling anything until one of the fans (about 20 of us there) started hollering about lawsuits (no, it was not me) and then the crew "conferenced" and told the coaches of the other team to have the players stop doing that or they would penalize them - so it ended...my kid woke up with a pretty stiff neck this morning, tho...thanks for any info.

The ways you describe this, grab the offensive linemen by the back of the helmets and shove their heads down I think its a foul. Theres no way you can grab the flat surface on the backside of the helmet. To me this definitely sounds like hes grabbing the back opening of the helmet. . In addition NF 2-3-6 says When a player on defense uses a hand or arm, the hand must be in advance of the elbow at the time of the contact and at the shoulder or below unless the opponent squats, ducks or submarines. Although its hard to rule on this without seeing it , this sounds like a foul for illegal use of the hands.

waltjp · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 02:15pm

If the offensive linemen are attempting to submarine the defensive line I'd see the hands on the helmet as okay. I would see it as illegal use of hands if they were grabbing the helmet and preventing the blockers from getting out of their stance and attempting to block.

Hands on the helmet is not a facemask penalty.

glyphrunner · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 02:29pm

Quote:

"and as the ball was snapped, they would grab the offensive linemen by the back of the helmets and shove their heads down..."

9-4-2(h) - Illegal Personal Contact (Facemasking)
No player shall grasp an opponent's face mask or any edge of a helmet opening.

By the sounds of it, the d-lineman is grabbing the back of the helmet which entails a facemask call. Since it's intentional, that's a 15 yard penalty.

Granted, this is by your description only. I would have to see the play to determine whether he was grabbing the back of the helmet, or simply pushing the o-lineman's head down as the o-lineman attempted to cut the d-lineman.

Patton · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 02:31pm

Could possibly have a head slap. Personal foul 9-4-7, but would have to see the play to call that one.

rockyroad · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 03:24pm

The o-linemen were not attempting to submarine or cut the d-line...they never even had a chance to get up into a position to block because their heads were being shoved down by guys who were already standing...like I said, I don't know much about football, but it sure seemed weird to me...when there was a flag thrown for it later (actually tossed when the d-end shoved a head down into his rapidly rising knee) the penalty was a disqualified d-end for a personal foul (in bball, it would have been flagrant, not sure what it is in football other than the kid got tossed)...thanks for the info - at least now I can tell my son that he doesn't get to start doing that to anyone

Mike Simonds · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 28, 2004, 04:01pm

I had a call in a varsity game a few weeks ago...

The center was blocking his defensive lineman and right after his initial contact he started pushing his opponent's helmet away from the point of attack.

I flagged him from my umpire position for illegal use of hands or a blocking technique not permitted by rule. This is a 10 yard penalty.

Now, if he has really jammed his hand hard against the helmet then that would be a personal foul. This is a 15 yard penalty.

cowbyfan1 · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 29, 2004, 05:28am

What is being discussed is a defender putting his hands flat on the back/sides of an offensive linemans helmet and controlling the player that way. If I see it I tell the defnders to get off the players helmet. Usually cleans it up.
I do have a hard time calling a penalty on this though. What real difference is there in a defender doing that to control an o-lineman and a running back stiff arming a defender to the helmet/fasemask? Both are flat handed against the helmet and both are using the opposing players head to gain control of the player.