I thought there might be some interest in newer officials seeing some sample test questions. If you are one of the many well versed officials on this forum, give the newer guys a chance before you answer. Have fun everyone.

4th and 8 on B25 yardline. Team A only has 6 players legally on the line at the snap. A1 completes a pass to A2, A2 is tackled on B20 yardline. Well after A2 is down and the whistle has sounded, B1 kicks A2. Time expires for the 2nd period during the down.

Give the down and distance if the live ball foul is both accepted and declined, give the timing implications in both and is B1 DQed.

a's 1/10 on b's 15 untime down and b1 ejected is this correct. the way I see it is theirs a 5 yard penalty on A for 6 men on line from pervious spot which puts the ball on the b's 30 and 15 yards for dead ball foul on b1 plus ejection which makes it 1/10 a on b's 15

Walter,

Good job so far. Now what do we have if A's foul is declined?

If the live ball penalty is declined then the period would end and we could enforce the dead ball foul from the succeeding spot which would be on the 2nd half kickoff. Just guessing.

[Edited by Hand Signals on Sep 15th, 2004 at 08:42 AM]

Penalize both fouls since one is live and one is dead ball, thus not double foul. Back up A five yards from the PLOS (if accepted) to the 30, then move them 15 yards forward on the dead ball personal foul to the B15. The sticks would have been on the 17, so first down. 1/10 from B15.

Since we have a live ball foul, we will play an untimed down. If for some godforsaken reason they decline the illegal procedure penalty, we'll take 'er to half time and mark off the penalty on the 2nd half kickoff.

I would think they would want to decline the penalty since by accepting it A would get one last shot at the endzone before halftime. This is a great example of the officials needing to know all the options. Definitely not a case where you ask B "you want the 5 yards don't ya'"

I agree. If I'm B's coach, I'll take my medicine on the 2nd half kickoff, not give A another shot at the endzone from my 15.

And despite what the book says, this is the coach's decision, not some 15-17 year old kid's. Be sure that the wing gets the info to the coach so he can signal his kid what he wants done.

Didn't even think of that.

I was thinking more of a test question than a football game. On a football field, I'm pretty sure I would have noticed that declining the penalty was a good option

Deep - why do you say this is the coach's decision? Except at the smaller-kids' age, I don't talk to the coach at all on penalties. The captains make the call.

I agree, if it is the coaches decision then why are we asking captains?

I think there is a difference between who makes the decision and who does the talking. This, like in many cases, is a decision primarily made by the coach. Yet I believe that actually communication with the referee must be made by the captain, and what he says goes.

See this what I do not understand, I have seen officials try to block captains from seeing what the coach wants to do on the pentaly yet pro football officials talk to the coach about pentalty enforcment all the time. Let the captains see what the coach wants to do. This is no harm in that

As a former coach and now a ref for 10+yrs in important or complicated situations I feel it I owe it to the teams and coaches to make sure there is no confusion in enforcement of penalties.

In the long run it will help the coach/official relationship . Communication is very important in theses situations and it is for the betterment (is that a word?) of the game.

I guess bottom line is put yourself in that coaches shoe and how would you like it explained or handled for you?

I always stand with the offended coach at my back so that the captain can look over my shoulder at his coach to receive his instructions as I explain his options.

Food for thought:

Rule 5-1-2b. After a fourth down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down.

Key words: "during the down"

The options are correct as contributed.

They are:

Accept: A's ball 1st and 10 on B15, untimed down. DQ B1

Decline: No untimed down. Halftime. Administer B1's DBF on 2nd half kickoff. DQ B1

I enjoyed the discussion on how to handle the choice. I tell the captains at the pregame coin tosse that by rule it is the captains choice but we all know that the coach signals in what he wants them to do. If you want to wait while ha makes up his mind, ask me to repeat the options. Look at the coach but don't walk away from me. If the coach is unaware of some details such as loss of down, he may not be making the best choice. In that case, listen to me and you might want to make a better choice.

If I were making the choice for B, I would decline this deep in my territory. Maybe not on the other side of midfield.


Look for "Jim's Test Question #2" on a forum near you soon!

Are you married too? This is something I have learned first hand this last year!

James

Well, we don't extend the period. This is easily handled by asking the B captain "You don't want them to have another chance at scoring, do you?"
Then the B player is ejected. Then the period is ended and you go to the coach to tell him of the ejection and the fact that there will be a 15 yarder on the 2nd half kickoff.
As far as who makes the call, it is the captain on the field who makes the call, he may <i>quickly </I> get advice from the coach, but if he makes a decision that's what it will be.
At the same time I don't let a kid make the wrong decision because the coaches either don't know what the foul is, or the enforcement. Had a whole coaching staff try to decline an OPI on 3rd down the other day so they could have 4th down come up. They had half the team yelling "decline it!!".
My first comment to the captain was "Are you going to listen to me first or take the advice of a bunch of people who don't know what is going on?"
He was smart. Said, "What' going on ref?" Then he made the proper call.
It is not our job to babysit a coaching staff everytime there is a penalty. That's why there are captains out there.

Sorry for the delay in getting back with you. It it looks like there has been some good discussion going on.

Part of my original statement was "And despite what the book says, this is the coach's decision, not some 15-17 year old kid's. Be sure that the wing gets the info to the coach so he can signal his kid what he wants done."

So I'm going to talk to the captain, but the real decision is going to be the coach's, who is going to let his kid know what he wants to do. And the reason for that is I'm not going to put a potentially game altering penalty decision like this on the shoulders of a 15-17 year old kid, I'm going to put it on the coaches shoulders. The captain has enough to worry about during the game.

I think anytime you can get coaches and players information, they appreciate it. Where's the harm in letting people know what is going on? I've always felt that a coach doesn't have to like every call that we make, but they do have the absolute right to know what we are doing and why.

As one poster pointed out, tough penalty options are decided by the coaches in the NFL. I know that the Big Ten operates this way, too. They talk to the captain, but get the info to the coaches so they can make the real decision. They will even go so far on a really tough one as to walk the captain over near his bench and give him the options right in front of it. Those levels have more experienced players than we do, so it stands to reason to me that if they think this is a good thing, then we should be doing the same thing to help our less experienced, younger players.

Rule 5-2-3c indicates that "... a new series is awarded to: B, if at the end of the fourth down, the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain."
The result of the play is that A has the ball on B's 20 which is behind the line to gain. Accepting the illegal formation penalty on A (which happened during the down) still leaves the ball behind the line to gain.
The dead ball foul happened after the down. So if you follow Rule 5-2-3c, why then, if the penalty is accepted for the illegal formation, is it not B's ball 1st and 10 at B's 15 (for one untimed down)?

It is.

Kentref
 

While it is true the 5 yard penalty against A leaves the mark short of the line to gain, accepting the penalty also means replaying 4th down. The ball is still in A's possession, thus the 15 yard against B takes the mark beyond the line to gain. 1st and 10 A.

Another resent thread talks about giving the best choice to the captain first. While I agree you should not block the captain's view from his coach, I look him straight in the eye and say "Listen to me closely - this is important". Give his best choice first and in this case I would include the information "if he declines the penalty the half is over - if he accepts the penalty, A will be given and an untimed down with the opporunity to score". I want to make sure I have his undivided attention before give him any options.

With the coaches around here - they would be telling him to take the penalty!

if a's penalty is decline you would mark the penalty from the end of the run 20 yardline half the distance to b's 10 1/10 a.

I WH on Friday nights and I *encourage* the kids to get the "right" answer from the sidelines.

On this play I would lay out all the options to the captain, including telling him that accepting the penalty will give A another shot at the endzone. The kids deserve to know the implications of any decision -- and we're not out there to show everyone how smart we are at the expense of the teams.

--Rich

Halftime. I don't care about the yardage markoff. Until the second half kickoff, of course.

To Kentref:

Dumbref is correct. Accepting A's liveball foul means the down remains the same, in this case 4th down (at the B30)and now an untimed down as part of the 1st half is needed. The deadball foul is measured from the succeeding spot, which because of the untimed down is the B30 , moving the ball beyond the line to gain to the B15, giving A possession beyond the line to gain and a 1st and 10.

Decling the penalty, leaves A at the B20 yardline, behind the line to gain. B's ball 1st and 10 from B20 is a moot point because the 2nd quarter is over. The succeeding spot is now the 2nd half kickoff for the deadball foul.

To Dumbref:

Your name really doesn't apply to you.

after farther review if the penalty is decline it would be halftime and the penalty would be marked of in the second half kickoff. must remember to read the complete question before responding.

Hello Walt,

Welcome to the forum. Try some of the other threads also.

Jim (you know who!)