Question for Linesmen and Referees:

Linesmen - when you have a foul, do you signal your foul in to the referee when he looks your way, or do you run it in?

Referees - do you prefer your linesmen signal their fouls to you, or run them in?

Had a referee (not an extremely experienced guy, but one who seems to know what he's doing) jump on me for signaling a foul on defense at the snap. So I watched for this on both Saturday and Sunday. On Saturday, it appeared 4 of 6 crews had their linesmen signaling the foul in most of the time. On Sunday, 2 of 5 were.

In High School games, I prefer that my lines don't signal, bring them in...In college I think it is a conference by conference thing...

As the R, I ask my wing officials to NOT give any signal. They are to come in part way and tell me a color. No pointing, no other gestures.

My reason is that I do not want to set up controversy should one wing have one team jumping first and the other wing is signaling something different.

Some officials try to get "cute" by throwing the flag one way or the other, to show the penalty on the offense or defense. That's lazy to me. What if one wing had it on the defense and thought all was OK, only to see the distance get walked off the other way? Now he has a problem of having to come in an try to "overrule".

Good old fashioned talking works every time. If L and LJ tell me different colors, I have them continue into the middle of the field to discuss.

No Signal
 

Just as rdfox said; it may create a hostile environment for the crew. The offended coach will only see the LJ who signaled against the other team.

And now you want to penalize me? Let me tell you one thing Mr. White Hat, yada, yada, yada...

Here is my rule.

Don't ever signal.

If you have a spot foul, stay at the spot and I will come to you.

Otherwise, you come to me.

High school coaches what to know everything and we don't have microphones. My preliminary is given toward the pressbox and my umpire. The umpire is responsible for making sure it gets communicated to the sidelines.

I'm guessing that your question is directed at snap infraction fouls (illegal procedure, off sides, etc).

As a linesman on my crew, I run in with the penalty vs signaling. I do this, even if I throw the flag on the side of the offending team. Not only am I ensuring that both me and linesjudge have the same penalty (if he also threw a flag), but then I can give the referee the number of the offender. This way, the linesjudge can tell the coach on his side who the offender was (if penalty was against him). But I do not signal from the sideline.

For spot fouls, another official will cover my flag while I go in and report my penalty to WH.


Serg


[Edited by VaASAump on Sep 13th, 2004 at 12:26 PM]

RDFOX:

Although i agree that giving penalty and offender to the WH verbally and in the middle of the field is better, i disagree that throwing the flag to the side of the offender is "lazy". On my crews, we throw the flags in a manner that each official on the field knows which team is the offender on the play (in the officials view). The technique is not usually picked up by any coaches because its suttle and the flag is not thrown in any direction. Just dropped on a side. At that time, the WH, and all other officials know who feels what. If there is a discrepancy, all officials know it and and the linesman will speak with the WH about it. If all the same, we come together to agree on a number.

I agree with Patsfan...a wing throwing the flag on either side of the LOS to indicate which team he/she sees the foul on is not cute or lazy. It is an effective method of crew communication. I believe the wing should still report it to the referee in the middle of the field.

I disagree with tossing the flag to the side of the offending team. What if you have movement on the line and end up having a pow-wow with WH and the other wing to determine if it was encroachment or false start?

We tried the flag thing without success. The problem is that we can't be sure that the other wing remembered to throw it in the right direction. Thus, we now do the following on snap infractions. After the whistle-flag both wings subtley place a hand on the thigh of the side of the offending team. If they are both the same, then the WH will proceed. Any disagreement and we get together. Comments?

If I'm the R, I can't tell from my angle what side of the NZ the flag is on unless he really heaved it to one side or the other. Better to just come in and tell me.

If I'm on the wing, I usually point with my hand held against my stomach which side I had across first. Not so much for the R but for the other wing if we both threw on a play where both teams were into the NZ fairly closely. Coaches can't see and the players rarely pick up on it.

Ref Ump Welsch:

A pow wow in the middle is fine. All that we are doing is recording our opinion on the foul. Once we meet in the middle and in the case the linesman have a difference of opinion, we know this right off the bat and discuss what each of us saw and approx when (to allow for us to penalize the correct team). Again, we are not haphazardly throwing a flag in one teams direction. Just a toss in either direction that, from someone other than an officials view, doesn't mean a thing.

We do the conference and include the U because he seas Infractions as well

What happens if the U throws the flag and blows it dead while the LJ and HL don't call anything???? Had that happen before, kind of an "awkard" situation. (I was HL)

An Unpire can see line twitches easier than the wings so it does not bother me as the WH.

I dont like my wings giving signals on wide guys in case they give the wrong signal.

For example they give the procedure signal when in reality it was illegal motion or vice versa. You get a coach who knows what is going on then you have to explain dead ball vs live ball and why the play was called dead or kept alive.

Just come in and tell me or I will run to you and we will get it right the first time.

Do you tell WH number of offender?

Serg

When a number is available, and we all try to have numbers but may not always get them, it is provided to the WH and offending sides wing simply because the coach is usually asking for a number. The reasoning behind giving the number to the corresponding wing is so we aren't shouting numbers across the field. This isn't the NFL and we don't need to bring any further attention to the penalty-maker, he probably already feels bad enough.

I've never understood this. Working basketball, we call a foul on the player and it's ANNOUNCED over the PA! Who cares who knows if a kid was holding or whatever?

I like the change in the NCAA where the numbers are announced -- it lets the TV cameras find the foul for a replay.

--Rich

If your conference/league has decided that they want the calling official to give the signal, so that the TV people can find the foul on the tape and have the replay ready sooner, then do it. If that's not the case, get to the R and report it there without signaling.

I too think it was about time to get the numbers included in the announcement in NCAA games. As someone said, the do it in basketball. Perhaps football players are more sensitive than basketball players? Should give numbers in NF as well, but I guess we'll have to wait for that to happen.

It depends on the foul if I signal it or talk to my WH about it. If it is a false start a signal works as 95% of the time everyone sees the offender anyways. Something like holding or PI I will go talk to him.

When I work the WH I will work it the same way.

I don't really agree with that, here's my issue on it. If we had microphones I'd be fine with it but all we're doing is wasting more breath as the coach asks the wings which player did it, most of the time the coaches don't even pay attention to what the penalty was and have to ask the wing anyways.

As a BJ, when I have a delay of game, I blow my whistle, throw my flag and give the delay signal, since the R is about 30 yds away from me. As a wing, I don't use signals, I run it in.

In basketball, you must give the number to report the foul so it gets applied to the individual.

In FB, as R, I don't say the number, but I make sure the wing has it for the coach.